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- Thread starter AngryAnt
- Start date
Being a really good player and playing really good football doesn't mean you are always enhancing your team prospects.
Jack Riewoldt was the best forward in the game from 2010 to 2012, won two Coleman Medals and a runner-up, Dyer Medal, All-Australian etc...
As Hardwick has said many times though, the way he was playing wasn't conducive to us being a good team and we finished no better than 12th in those years.
Same thing with Taranto, he is playing great footy, winning heaps of the ball and competing like a machine but he isn't making us a good team, because he turns it over too much and takes the wrong option too much.
Either Taranto needs to do a Riewoldt and adjust his game or he won't help us be a good team.
Clayton Oliver is a good example, when he came on the scene he was a great ball winner and a poor kick. So his answer was not to kick, in his first couple of seasons he kicked it 30% then 26% of the time.
That makes you a very one dimensional player and easy for the opposition to plan around so he started to up it. 35%, then 37%, then to 45% where it sits now. He did that an maintained about the same numbers of turnovers and efficiency, but doubled the metres he gained with each possession, and lifted his percentage of team score involvements by 10%.
He's never going to be considered a great kick but he has worked with his limitations to make himself a more damaging player for his team.
So you are saying the coaches are telling us he's a good player but he's no good for the team, and they still vote for him on that basis?
Because I don't buy that for a moment.
We don't have access to the stat that TBR is getting at here.
Turnovers that lead to an opposition score launch. Thats the key. There are turnovers that don't result in scores to the opposition and there are turnovers that do result in a score to the opposition. A lot of that will come down to where on the field we are turning it over.
As someone else mentioned, more earlier in the season than in recent weeks, we were turning the ball over really badly in our defensive half, that either led directly to a score or a score launch (a score direct from the turnover is still regarded as a score launch (I think anyway).
Thats the measure, are they fatal turnovers or not. Thats something we don't have on TT. I'd suspect his turnovers aren't as damaging as others, 1 because they are further forward and 2 because he works so hard defensively. Our defence (and thats all over the ground rather than just the back 7) is impacting in this area, and we know that there are a few that impact much more than others and TT is in that group.
I don't know where we'd get this stat from, but I'll bet his turnovers are not hurting us has bad as some others.
Turnovers that lead to an opposition score launch. Thats the key. There are turnovers that don't result in scores to the opposition and there are turnovers that do result in a score to the opposition. A lot of that will come down to where on the field we are turning it over.
As someone else mentioned, more earlier in the season than in recent weeks, we were turning the ball over really badly in our defensive half, that either led directly to a score or a score launch (a score direct from the turnover is still regarded as a score launch (I think anyway).
Thats the measure, are they fatal turnovers or not. Thats something we don't have on TT. I'd suspect his turnovers aren't as damaging as others, 1 because they are further forward and 2 because he works so hard defensively. Our defence (and thats all over the ground rather than just the back 7) is impacting in this area, and we know that there are a few that impact much more than others and TT is in that group.
I don't know where we'd get this stat from, but I'll bet his turnovers are not hurting us has bad as some others.
Would I add TT to any of our 3 flag winning teams, my oath in an absolute heartbeat. He'd make any of those teams better.
Argue all you like TBR, I can't agree one bit.
But as always, you're welcome to your opinion
Argue all you like TBR, I can't agree one bit.
But as always, you're welcome to your opinion
You're way to caught up in the micro of the coach's votes vs the macro of building a premiership team.
Coaches vote on who played a good game, they don't judge premiership contention prospects.
BTW - and this is why stats only tell some of the story - I went to the AFL stats website and downloaded the disposal stats from 2017 and 2023 (to date) and its interesting seeing the stats.
Our disposal efficiency is actually better than it was in 2017.
2017 DE% = 70%, KE% = 63%, HE% = 80%
2023 DE% = 71%, KE% = 64%, HE% = 81%
We are slightly better in each stat so focusing on disposal efficiency is not the outlier here.
Even factoring in the other 2 premiership years.
2019 DE% = 72%, KE% = 65%, HE% = 82%
2020 DE% = 71%, KE% = 66%, HE% = 79%
Our disposal efficiency is actually better than it was in 2017.
2017 DE% = 70%, KE% = 63%, HE% = 80%
2023 DE% = 71%, KE% = 64%, HE% = 81%
We are slightly better in each stat so focusing on disposal efficiency is not the outlier here.
Even factoring in the other 2 premiership years.
2019 DE% = 72%, KE% = 65%, HE% = 82%
2020 DE% = 71%, KE% = 66%, HE% = 79%
I'm going to have a go at tracking scores from turnovers in our GWS game.
I dare you to rewatch the Suns game for this and also count missed i50 open targets, and missed 'easy' shots at goal. Cruel way to spend 2 hours though.
Can you check the validity of the free kicks whilst you are at it?
It was your contention that's he's a borderline liability and the only way to judge that is to watch games I'd reckon.
No doubt there are aspects of his game he can improve on like mist players - he'll be elite on just about every measure then
Could he somehow prevent a team from winning a flag that they would have won without him? I seriously doubt it.
It was your contention that's he's a borderline liability and the only way to judge that is to watch games I'd reckon.
No doubt there are aspects of his game he can improve on like mist players - he'll be elite on just about every measure then
Could he somehow prevent a team from winning a flag that they would have won without him? I seriously doubt it.
No you're misunderstanding, a borderline liability to being a premiership team, if he is your prime midfielder. Actually not borderline, I'm prepared to say no team will ever be a premiership contender with Taranto in their starting midfield. He's a rotation/half forward as he was at GWS in 2019.
It's not ground breaking, there are hundreds of really good players who don't ever enable their team to compete for a premiership.
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I get what you are saying TBR, but you are really just doubling down every time now - you can argue that Taranto is a liability as the "prime" midfielder if you want, but to me the midfield is a unit, you'll have inside players, outside, accumulators, attacking vs run both ways and so on. Right now he's our prime midfielder as he's clearly playing the best of anyone in our current midfield - he may or may not be more of a supporting player depending on who develops/joins next year and beyond. Dimma's magic was taking the skills/attributes of the players he had, and some of them were massive talents - Martin, Cotchin - who changed/sacrificed his own game massively over the journey - Prestia etc and finding a game plan that suited our players so perfectly it gave us an edge for four years that almost no other side could beat.
Whether Taranto will ever part of a premiership midfield we can't say now - the odds are that he won't, only because it's damn hard to win a premiership. But Taranto has the mindset, the skill-set, the workrate that absolutely he could be part of a premiership winning midfield IF he has the right skillsets and so on around him. Absolutely there is a potential game style/player mix where Taranto could be a premiership mid. And absolutely given the guy's clear motivation and commitment he will improve weaknesses and sacrifice parts of his own game if the coach asked him to.
Anyways, we've done it to death now. I'll stick with the coaches votes being the best indicator of a player's value. If Taranto's weaknesses really were such a liability coaches would recognise this and not vote for him - hey are damn good at identifying player weaknesses, that's their job.
Whether Taranto will ever part of a premiership midfield we can't say now - the odds are that he won't, only because it's damn hard to win a premiership. But Taranto has the mindset, the skill-set, the workrate that absolutely he could be part of a premiership winning midfield IF he has the right skillsets and so on around him. Absolutely there is a potential game style/player mix where Taranto could be a premiership mid. And absolutely given the guy's clear motivation and commitment he will improve weaknesses and sacrifice parts of his own game if the coach asked him to.
Anyways, we've done it to death now. I'll stick with the coaches votes being the best indicator of a player's value. If Taranto's weaknesses really were such a liability coaches would recognise this and not vote for him - hey are damn good at identifying player weaknesses, that's their job.
I can condense it down to "the skillset" and then we only disagree on two words
Skillset. Almost at consensus.
i remember when posters used to say we would never win a premiership with Houli and Griggs in the team. hopefully this Taranto call is about as accurate.
Can anyone find our game replay on Kayo?
I've tried on TV and phone and nothing. All other games are there but ours is only a mini.
I've tried on TV and phone and nothing. All other games are there but ours is only a mini.
I did say that for Houli, and Hardwick agreed with me, but he addressed the issues and improved. Lot easier to address not being hard enough than not being able to kick though.
I also wanted Hardwick sacked which may or may not have been wrong.
