Ruck hitouts | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Ruck hitouts

Rosy

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,348
32
RucksHOHADHAD%
Simmonds18.33.820.9
Knoble14.34.330.2
Stafford5.41.223.6
AFL ave.22.6

HO-Hit outs  HAD- Hitouts to advantage  HAD%- hitouts to advantage efficiency

I'm a bit surprised to read the ruck stats and how low the hitout to advantage efficiency is.   Would love to see the stats of what follows the hitouts to advantage in terms of clearances and scores.

It seems to be an area that could greatly benefit the team if a formula could be devised to give our midfielders first use of the ball.  Obviously a lot easier said than done.

Troy is obviously awesome around the ground so would it be better for us to have both ruckmen on the ground when Trent is available, with him taking most of the centre rucks? 

Would it be more beneficial to sometimes thump the ball from a ruck contest to a team mate further out rather than try to finess tapping it to a team mate?
 
Premiership sides ideally have 2 ruckmen.

It would be my hope that Simmonds would have a 'full-time' partner.
 
Our rucks are quite adequate IMO

Knoble with the finesse and Simmonds with the ground work and goals. Hall if necessary

Pattison developing. Graeme in apprenticeship.

Remember the 80's -90's? Hawthorn roving great John Platten said they usually had to read the taps from the opposition ruckman. i don't think the hawthorn ruckman Greg Dear would have been very pleased to hear that remark.

But nontheless, it suggests that a team can be a power without a dominating ruckman.

They reckon lade and Simmonds are fighting for the all australian berth: but neither plays for a team in the top 8.
 
I think the issue of hit-outs to advantage not only comes down to the ruckman,it also comes down to how strong the midfield is. Simmonds seems to get his hands to the ball on a regular occassion only to see the opposition mids reading the ball a bit better. So not only do we need to work on where to hit the ball but also where the mids should be running too.
 
I think you'll find that 30% is quite high, as the bulk of hitouts don't go to either teams clear advantage.

20% is probably a touch low, but it's dependant on the quality of midfielder as well to get into the right position to receive the ball. A few folks have been begging to draft a tough inside midfielder who can win some clearances, and this probably reinforces that call. I wonder if those numbers have changed since Coughlan went out with injury?
 
The_General said:
I think you'll find that 30% is quite high, as the bulk of hitouts don't go to either teams clear advantage.
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Very high seeing the AFL average is 22.6.
 
I think that's the key reason why, when you look at Trent Knobel, you can't just take his 8 possessions a game and say he doesn't offer much else apart from being a good tap ruckman.

He's clearly getting clean possessions for our team, and it would be interesting to see what ratio of HAD turn into goals, both AFL average, and for us.
 
The_General said:
I think that's the key reason why, when you look at Trent Knobel, you can't just take his 8 possessions a game and say he doesn't offer much else apart from being a good tap ruckman.

He's clearly getting clean possessions for our team, and it would be interesting to see what ratio of HAD turn into goals, both AFL average, and for us.
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Excellent point, General. Wish he'd be on the turf a little more regularly.
 
Phantom said:
Excellent point, General. Wish he'd be on the turf a little more regularly.
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Just spruiking the worth of my man phantom, ala rayzorwire style  ;D
 
hit outs to advantage is one thing
reading the hit out is another

the most alarming thing at RFC is our ability to work together as a midfield unit

(ie) hit out, read hit out, get first hands on ball - we manage these things well its the next phase -

1. Releasing the ball to an outside runner who has the pace to run away
2. shepherding and protecting the person reading the ball to be able to cleanly dispose of it
3. blocking chasers that place the ball carrier under pressure (or percieved pressure) prior to disposal

these are the 3 things we dont do well, and winning the ruck contest does not help these at all
the 3 mids need to all work together, 1 gathers, 1 blocks/shepards the other releases and disposes of the ball
when all 3 are singing from the same hym book and redaing the play together we will become more effective out of the centre

at the moment most of our attacking plays are rebounds from HB or FB - this was the worst part of our playing style when TW took over - i believe he has fixed that already (year 1)

the next step will be our clearances from the centre and to get quality ball cleared (as described earlier) Ratten would be ideal for working in this area (as King has been for the back half)

when the centre gets sorted out (year 2) the next area that needs work is our fwd line

we need to work on opening it up and fwds working together to block, release, dummy lead and create some system - this will happen in year 3, this is when the new breed of fwds wuill start developing - *smile*, Hughes, limbach

only then will we be ready for a serious crack at a premiership
 
Whilst I agree in principle, we should be able to work with our forwards and with our midfielders to do their bits seperately, and simultaneously. We shouldn't have to wait an extra year to get the forward line establised.

IF Brian Taylor was a volunteer to help our forward line, I can see the need to hire a new assistant coach. I believe that aspect of our game has been terrible this year, but I guess that's for a different thread.
 
the fwd line finishes off the work of the suppliers, get the supply right and you just need to finish the finishers (if you know what i mean)

the more you supply the greater number of goals (even with a low efficiency rate) what happens when you play good sides, or in finals pressure the amount of supply reduces - hence the efficiency and finishing needs to be greater

its a journey to get the whole package working, we have started at the back (the worst for us) and working our way fwd, thats why we can beat the average sides but not the good sides

when we get the centre sorted we will go to the next level

when we get the finishing sorted we go to the highest level
 
Knoble is not good enough with his skills to be considered an afl footballer anymore. Everyone says ruckmen dont need skills and all that, but the game is evolving and everyone is accountable. We cant have a guy in the team coz hes big, everytime he gets the ball he coughs it up. He isnt mobile enough and ruckmen who arent that mobile rest up in the forward pocket, but since knoble cant mark or kick thats of no benefit. I dont feel hes anything more than a backup ruckman
 
And what stats do you base this argument on A_Y?

Whilst I wouldn't ever put Knobel in Judd's class at ball disposal, I wouldn't say he's as bad as Tivendale or Chaffey. I'll see if I can dig some stuff up, which will reinforce this point when I get home.

You are correct, he is a back up ruckman, but one that makes our side better when he's on the park.
 
knoble cant kick and cant hand ball effectively - in my mind that means his skills are ordinary
 
The_General said:
And what stats do you base this argument on A_Y?
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Thats whats wrong witht he world and why footy is knackered, Stats stats and more stats. This has nothing to do with stats. Knoble isnt up to scratch as a league footballer. Its as simple as that.

Players need more than 1 string to their bow. Simmonds is an athletic runner who seems to be at every contest, he can kick and he can mark.

Staf may not be agile but he can mark and he can definately kick, more than a worthy 2nd tall.

Knoble is not agile, cant mark, cant kick, cant do anything to warrant him a senior afl position.

Stats are whats ruining this game, everyone asks for stats to prove points. Its not all about stats in this game and the sooner people realise that, the better
 
Yep, facts and stats are a blight on football...what we need is more highly informed yobbo opinion...preferably delivered through a megaphone made out of VB cans... :spin ::)

Perhaps most importantly, the stats quoted above for Knobel are basically from the Adelaide and Geelong games, where we won against two sides with better lists than ours (arguable I guess in Geelong's case).

When fit, Knobel is the best ruckman we have, no question. At his peak form he just hits the ball straight down the throat of the onballers and this translates directly into goals with the right midfield combination.

Personally, I believe that quality hitouts to advantage are worth 2-3 normal effective possessions, certainly in the centre of the ground where every bounce equates to a potential 12 point play - if you lose the ball the opposition get the chance to score, are already halfway there and in the corridor, if you win then you have the same chance...it's an absolutely crucial part of the game.

At his best, winning 20 hitouts a game with around 1/3rd going to advantage, Knobel's work in the centre is potentially worth 5-6 12 point plays (allowing for some round the ground ruckwork) - in other words, 10-12 goals. So it's naive and short sighted to complain about how often he gets it around the ground, how few goals he kicks etc - if he's giving us well above average first use then he's valuable. Simple as that.

In comparison, if Simmonds gets 20 hitouts and 4 go to advantage, that equates to 3 (allowing for round the ground ruckwork) 12 point plays - 6 goals - so he has to directly kick, save or set up another 4-6 to catch up with Knobel in effectiveness.

We need both style of big men and they compliment each other nicely. But players with Knobel's talents aren't a dime a dozen and we're lucky to have him on the deal we got him - assuming of course he can regain his best and stay relatively injury free.
 
your delusional Rayzor

knoble in the ruck and hall at CHF - that would give us the brownlow and the coleman in the one year :hihi
 
Leotards itching you Tango?

Or do you just feel the need to remind us you're not capable of any meaningful counter analysis?
 
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