Secession movements

[Giardiasis]

so the Catalonians who vote are stupid, and you have openly stated in the thread re marriage equality that you wont be voting because you dont believe in the system, but now the system gives you an outcome you like so suddenly voting is good again.

Australian politics is so centralised that voting doesn’t really change anything. All our politicians with very few exceptions are statist to the core and they have no qualms stamping on private property rights, and neither do most voters. There is very little that separates the ALP and the LNP, they just have a different emphasis on how to stample on private property rights. So yeah, voting in this situation is rather pointless.

Marriage equality voting I refrained from because I didn’t think either option was palatable.

I’m not saying voting in itself is stupid. Voting to determine how you want to be governed is a clear cut option that will change a lot for the people involved. Voting in decentralised situations, especially at the local level, becomes far more important as the votes actually carry weight.

Catalonian’s voting to separate from Spain is completely different from voting in Australia between the giant douche and the *smile* sandwich.

Is that clearer? Can you answer my question now?

 

[1eyedtiger]

I’m not saying voting in itself is stupid. Voting to determine how you want to be governed is a clear cut option that will change a lot for the people involved. Voting in decentralised situations, especially at the local level, becomes far more important as the votes actually carry weight.

So what do you think of voting in local council elections?

I for one cannot name the mayor of my local council or any of the councillors in any of the other wards within the shire. And when election time comes around, I haven't a clue who to vote for because I don't know the nominees or their real intentions. Only that it's probable that they're only there to and get on board the gravy train and do whatever they please, as councils are a generally a law unto themselves. Which pretty much makes voting for them equally as useless as voting at state or federal level. Unless of course, you have some way of making any of them accountable. That's the real issue here.

 

[Giardiasis]

So what do you think of voting in local council elections?

I for one cannot name the mayor of my local council or any of the councillors in any of the other wards within the shire. And when election time comes around, I haven't a clue who to vote for because I don't know the nominees or their real intentions. Only that it's probable that they're only there to and get on board the gravy train and do whatever they please, as councils are a generally a law unto themselves. Which pretty much makes voting for them equally as useless as voting at state or federal level. Unless of course, you have some way of making any of them accountable. That's the real issue here.

If you can’t name the leader of a political group then that is generally a good thing. They shouldn’t have any real power (like local mayors) so who cares who they are.

 

[1eyedtiger]

If you can’t name the leader of a political group then that is generally a good thing. They shouldn’t have any real power (like local mayors) so who cares who they are.

It's a bit of a problem if I can't name my local mayor, let alone my local state and federal members. It gives them power as they become unaccountable. Faceless politicians if you like. And the problem is that they have real power, whether you know them or not. It's shameful that I don't know these things but I'm guessing I'm far from the only one. (not an excuse mind you). I feel pretty much helpless in regards to these matters so I'm pretty apathetic and taking the time to learn who they are. We don't have the mass protests you saw in the 60's and 70's anymore. Most politicians today were probably at those protests and understand the power of numbers, and have moved to minimize protests lest they become 'victims' of their own tactics.

You do realize that with all the citizenship high court decisions and what not, there still hasn't been an audit of the remaining federal members. Why? Because apparently (according to news sources), the major parties aren't too enthused about it.

I wonder why?

If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear. Isn't that what they keep telling us mere citizens?

 

[Brodders17]

Australian politics is so centralised that voting doesn’t really change anything. All our politicians with very few exceptions are statist to the core and they have no qualms stamping on private property rights, and neither do most voters. There is very little that separates the ALP and the LNP, they just have a different emphasis on how to stample on private property rights. So yeah, voting in this situation is rather pointless.

Marriage equality voting I refrained from because I didn’t think either option was palatable.

I’m not saying voting in itself is stupid. Voting to determine how you want to be governed is a clear cut option that will change a lot for the people involved. Voting in decentralised situations, especially at the local level, becomes far more important as the votes actually carry weight.

Catalonian’s voting to separate from Spain is completely different from voting in Australia between the giant douche and the *smile* sandwich.

Is that clearer? Can you answer my question now?

I wouldnt vote for either, and only dumb people would have voted, as they are just replacing one oppressor with another.

By seceding they are just creating another national government which will require to steal 'taxes' through force to pay for themselves. They will need to duplicate all the national systems that already exist. the vote was just another waste of money, they costs involved in seperating will come from the population via force. it doesnt seem very productive to me.

 

[Giardiasis]

I wouldnt vote for either, and only dumb people would have voted, as they are just replacing one oppressor with another.

By seceding they are just creating another national government which will require to steal 'taxes' through force to pay for themselves. They will need to duplicate all the national systems that already exist. the vote was just another waste of money, they costs involved in seperating will come from the population via force. it doesnt seem very productive to me.

True, but there are oppressors and there are oppressors. A Catalonian government has a much harder job of oppressing Catalonian’s than the Spanish government, and there are more options available to people so governments have more competition to treat their citizens well. It might also lead to further secession, further enhancing this effect. Whether it is productive or not is not important, what matters is whether people have the liberty for self determination or whether they should be thrown in prison or shot for it.

 

[Baloo]

If La Liga threatens to kick Barcelona out of the league for no longer being Spanish, the Catalans will quickly rethink their stance on secession.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

If La Liga threatens to kick Barcelona out of the league for no longer being Spanish, the Catalans will quickly rethink their stance on secession.

Nice angle Baloo. If Queensland starts talking secession would the AFL block it to save The Suns?

 

[1eyedtiger]

If you can’t name the leader of a political group then that is generally a good thing. They shouldn’t have any real power (like local mayors) so who cares who they are.

Sad to say, I don't agree. My local council commands a $134 million dollar annual budget. They DO hold real power, that they get primarily from ratepayers. I SHOULD KNOW WHO THEY ARE. And so should everyone else that votes. They hold real power and WE should know who they are. The problem here is that our local council is separate from the state government who in turn is separate from the feds. All in different seats and none who give a rats about another.

There is NO accountability by fact that no one knows how is accountable and even if they did, that person isn't accountable anyway.

We need to scrap the states, align federal seats with local councils so that a protest on the steps of the local council hall reaches Canberra, directly. Lack of representation is the current problem. The mere act of voting in a 'democratic dictator' is not representation as the elected dictator can do as they please because there is NO accountability in the system.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Sad to say, I don't agree. My local council commands a $134 million dollar annual budget. They DO hold real power, that they get primarily from ratepayers. I SHOULD KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

Agree. I took the time to read 30+ pseudo-mission statements for each of the candidates before the last council election and voted accordingly. And still ended up with one of the councils that voted not to observe Australia Day.

I'm open to the idea of abolishing that level of government.

 

[Sintiger]

Nice angle Baloo. If Queensland starts talking secession would the AFL block it to save The Suns?

It would actually give the AFL the international expansion they have long wanted

 

[Brodders17]

it appears the spanish courts have overrules the votes and rules secession illegal.

 

[Giardiasis]

it appears the spanish courts have overrules the votes and rules secession illegal.

Big surprise there.