So what if we finish 9th...it's different this time !

[the claw]

Im afraid you can say that with every team, there are no guarantees the youngsters they have recruited will be there in 2 or 3 years time. But the point of this thread is whether it is different this time as opposed to 2006. My belief based on the list we had is it is definitely different. There is a core group of youngsters that have been home grown, that have played in a relatively succesful Coburg team. Of course we need to continue to develop our list, medium to long-term no-one can say whether it is grim or not as it all depends on 1, how our current youngsters progress, especially those on the fringe, and 2. how we continue to recruit.

With draft concessions coming for the new teams, it will definitely be harder especially for the teams at the bottom at the time, but I do see opportunity for the smarter clubs to trade well with these new clubs (who will need some experienced players) to attain high draft picks. I believe that is the whole idea of giving them so many draft picks, as bartering power for some more experienced players.

okay your entitled to your view.

but imo it is no different this time round to last. why well because of basic list flaws that have existed for yrs. even though we have improved the list in quantity and quality.
my analogy is if wallace was sacked tomorrow the new bloke coming in would be taking over a bottom 4 list. unlike when wallace first came it is not a complete basket case. i suppose we are debating the degree or amount of improvement we have had. my outlook is a bit glummer than yours. antway next yr will determine a lot of thingsit most certainly will make or break wallace especially if he only delists a handful and we use just 3 or 4 nd picks.

 

[ZeroGame]

antway next yr will determine a lot of thingsit most certainly will make or break wallace especially if he only delists a handful and we use just 3 or 4 nd picks.

Problem is claw, your attitude towards Wallace is half the reason we will be keeping more senior players on the list for 2009, Wallace has to start thinking about self preservation now because if he doesn't make the finals he is gone.
Had he been resigned for another 2 years, he perhaps wouldn't be so hesitent to delist some players in the maybe pile because those extra mature bodies will help him get into the 8.

 

[TigerFurious]

I think our percentage is a fair reflection of where we are really at - 12th!

Claw is being overly negative as usual but as usual makes some very solid points. We have some very good kids coming through but the list structure is still fundamentally flawed.

We'll go into next year with 5 of our best 22 (Richo, Bowden, Simmonds, Johnson and Brown) 30+. No capable backup ruckman, our best KP forward will be 34! And we can't possibly have as good a run with injuries as we did this year.

Wallace is facing an uphill battle to keep his job. I hope he doesn't do anything stupid come trade week.

 

[Ruthless Tigers ?]

When has a Richmond team ever had a sound percentage? Even in the halcyon Hafey era did we rarely have a good percentage.
I think that there are a serious issues ahead with our list unles sthere is some massive imporvement in the players or we can snare some top players in the draft

We'll go into next year with 5 of our best 22 (Richo, Bowden, Simmonds, Johnson and Brown) 30+. No capable backup ruckman, our best KP forward will be 34! And we can't possibly have as good a run with injuries as we did this year.

Wallace is facing an uphill battle to keep his job. I hope he doesn't do anything stupid come trade week.

The ageing senior players is a major concern as we still rely heavily upon these guys.

 

[IanG]

Wallace is facing an uphill battle to keep his job. I hope he doesn't do anything stupid come trade week.

Craig Cameron is List Manager not Wallace.

 

[Forever Hoping]

When has a Richmond team ever had a sound percentage? Even in the halcyon Hafey era did we rarely have a good percentage.

I realise that people can get carried away with the tiger passion when discussing what we need to do to regain some respect, but it is always best not express fact based opinions without checking. In the Hafey years ('66 - '76) our average percentage was 119.4%, being above 120% on six occasions and only falling below 100% once (in his last year) and other than that year we were in the top four in regards percentage every single year. Hard to argue against fact DHN and given your on-line name, I gather you are from the period so it is surprising you can be that wrong!

 

[Opulentus Tigris]

If Wallace trades away a first round pick for a current player, just to save his job. I will

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Scarlett - 192cm
Harley - 192cm
Taylor - 193cm
Mackie - 192cm

Thursfield - 191cm
Moore - 189cm
McGuane - 190cm
Schulz - 193cm

Huge difference there, would suggest that all bar Schulz are faster than all the Geelong defenders
Not sure how the arm lengths measure up either, would argue that with such a minor difference that it's possible that a 1-2cm discrepancy could be made up by that.

However Schulz at 193cm is taller or as tall as the 4 Geelong defenders you mentioned, plus Geelong won a flag and played all season without Egan.

Still got Rance to come into the side at 192cm as well and could put on another cm as an 18 year old

No. 1 - Schulz is not a permanent member of our backline, and frankly never will be
No. 2 - so an inch in height doesn't matter? Nor the 10 + kg size difference? Height/Weight irrelevant hey? Kel Moore big enough for key position for the rest of his career? Can our boys add 10kg? Unlikely
No. 3 - where do you get your speed figures from????? And your arm length estimates???? :
No. 4 - Rance is yet to play so how is he included? I too hope he makes it and from all reports is progressing well - we desperately need him to make it

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Problem is claw, your attitude towards Wallace is half the reason we will be keeping more senior players on the list for 2009, Wallace has to start thinking about self preservation now because if he doesn't make the finals he is gone.
Had he been resigned for another 2 years, he perhaps wouldn't be so hesitent to delist some players in the maybe pile because those extra mature bodies will help him get into the 8.

Rubbish

 

[Leysy Days]

No. 2 - so an inch in height doesn't matter?

C'mon BCL, your not getting carried away by guys height measurements again. Mackie is a perfect example - whilst having a good year he's as far removed from being a key position player as you can get.

 

[tigerlandishome]

They currently have 4 players in their backline (Scarlett/Harley/Taylor/Mackie) all taller than our biggest backman. And that does not include the biggest Egan, (gun AA CHB) at 195 & about 100kg. Not tall hey???

Milburn, at 189cm, is a gun, but only because of the support around him. Put him at CHB in our side and he would be exposed for size.

So Thursfield & McGuane will end up the same size as the Geelong boys?

Fair dinkum, I feel like spewing up every time I read crap about our backline being big enough as it is. Get real.

You probably need to stop reading it then, or alternatively, do what I do and find a bucket. :hihi

 

[Big Cat Lover]

C'mon BCL, your not getting carried away by guys height measurements again. Mackie is a perfect example - whilst having a good year he's as far removed from being a key position player as you can get.

That's exactly my point. He is not a KPP yet is bigger than our current KPB of Moore and Thursfield/McGuane. Milburn is regarded highly but if he was forced to play KP he would not have the same reputation IMO.

Can you see Moore/McGuane/Thursfielfd turning into Harley/Scarlett/Egan? I can't as whilst they have talent they don't have the same physical capabilities. I think it is simple.

Rance needs to make it and we need anoth KPB - Hurley by all reports?

I rate Thursfield/Moore and am starting to think McGuane might hold down a HBF/BP but IMO they should be playing on the HBF/BP of a pretty formidable defence with backup roles in the KP when required through injury etc.

 

[tigerlandishome]

That's exactly my point. He is not a KPP yet is bigger than our current KPB of Moore and Thursfield/McGuane. Milburn is regarded highly but if he was forced to play KP he would not have the same reputation IMO.

Can you see Moore/McGuane/Thursfielfd turning into Harley/Scarlett/Egan? I can't as whilst they have talent they don't have the same physical capabilities. I think it is simple.

Rance needs to make it and we need anoth KPB - Hurley by all reports?

I rate Thursfield/Moore and am starting to think McGuane might hold down a HBF/BP but IMO they should be playing on the HBF/BP of a pretty formidable defence with backup roles in the KP when required through injury etc.

Spot on. :clap

 

[Tigers of Old]

BCL makes some valid points.

Moore is an ideal third tall and has done a valiant job this season in some big roles but Wil & McGuane are pencils compared with the Cat defenders.

 

[ZeroGame]

No. 1 - Schulz is not a permanent member of our backline, and frankly never will be
No. 2 - so an inch in height doesn't matter? Nor the 10 + kg size difference? Height/Weight irrelevant hey? Kel Moore big enough for key position for the rest of his career? Can our boys add 10kg? Unlikely
No. 3 - where do you get your speed figures from????? And your arm length estimates???? :
No. 4 - Rance is yet to play so how is he included? I too hope he makes it and from all reports is progressing well - we desperately need him to make it

1. He's played most of his year as a CHB with pinch hitting forward. He's played his best football down back, if you're going to include 4 defenders for Geelong then compare it with 4 from Richmond.
2. It's not an inch we are talking about here, for most of it we are talking about 1cm that's about |-----| <-- that bloody much!!!
3. Moore is one of the fastest at the club, Thursfield's closing speed has always been his strenght, McGuane was drafted as an athlete. The problem with bigger bodied defenders is they lose some of their speed and agility, that's why they don't want guys like Thursfield to put on much more size. With the new rules on interfering with a forward mean that a defender has to just beat the forward to the ball and get a fist in, the strength issue isn't as important as it used to be.
4. I didn't include Rance in the main comparison list, I only mentioned him at the end as someone who's coming in. Everyone knows he'll be a big part of our defence in the future so don't get your panties in a bunch.

 

[Leysy Days]

That's exactly my point. He is not a KPP yet is bigger than our current KPB of Moore and Thursfield/McGuane.

Eh, Not sure your point.
Leo Barry has been full-back for years in very successfull teams & is a full 10cm shorter than Mackie.

Use your eyes BCL & dont just judge a player's positional capabilities from a players measurements. Its folly.

On Egan, he hasnt played for a long long time. Hasn't seemed to have affected the team in any way, why's that?
Taylor is getting towelled most weeks & they are still flogging teams. why's that?

Sure it'd be nice to have even more options down back but Leysy looks at our team "on-field" & see's we have far more pressing needs than recruiting more key defenders. Luckily ILO Wallet agrees on this.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

1. He's played most of his year as a CHB with pinch hitting forward. He's played his best football down back, if you're going to include 4 defenders for Geelong then compare it with 4 from Richmond.
2. It's not an inch we are talking about here, for most of it we are talking about 1cm that's about |-----| <-- that bloody much!!!
3. Moore is one of the fastest at the club, Thursfield's closing speed has always been his strenght, McGuane was drafted as an athlete. The problem with bigger bodied defenders is they lose some of their speed and agility, that's why they don't want guys like Thursfield to put on much more size. With the new rules on interfering with a forward mean that a defender has to just beat the forward to the ball and get a fist in, the strength issue isn't as important as it used to be.4. I didn't include Rance in the main comparison list, I only mentioned him at the end as someone who's coming in. Everyone knows he'll be a big part of our defence in the future so don't get your panties in a bunch.

Yes clearly the Geelong boys are struggling with their bulk. And as you say their strength is now redundant. You've really nailed it zero. Stop those summer weights sessions now before we get too big......

 

[Col.E.Kurtz]

The defensive ability of Geelong back 6 is vastly overrated. Scarlett is getting beaten more and more. David Hale kicked 8 goals on the weekend.

Geelong had 64 inside 50s to North Melbourne’s 35 on the weekend. Geelong is a great team because they have a great midfield.

Our back 4 KKP defenders (counting Rance) is a strength of the club, upgrading there is folly given our weakness elsewhere.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Eh, Not sure your point.
Leo Barry has been full-back for years in very successfull teams & is a full 10cm shorter than Mackie.

Use your eyes BCL & dont just judge a player's positional capabilities from a players measurements. Its folly.

On Egan, he hasnt played for a long long time. Hasn't seemed to have affected the team in any way, why's that?
Taylor is getting towelled most weeks & they are still flogging teams. why's that?

Sure it'd be nice to have even more options down back but Leysy looks at our team "on-field" & see's we have far more pressing needs than recruiting more key defenders. Luckily ILO Wallet agrees on this.

Leo Barry is not in the top 5 FB and never has been. Imagine how damaging he could have been on a lesser opponent?

Taylor has been towelled the last 2 weeks - prior to that has had a good season, not bad considering his lack of experience.

Your eyes say a short bloke can play KP do they? You sure you're not short-sighted? Name me the successful small KP players in recent history?

I'm talking about building a long-term powerhouse backline that intimidates the opposition. Rance in one of the key posts, hopefully another 6ft 4 plus guy in the other with Moore/Thursfield/McGuane and another small to share the other 4 spots. What a unit that could be.

I'm not questioning their talent, just their ability to play in positions IMO they are not suited to long term.

We should be getting rid of 10-12 players and drafting only ruck/KP/midfield - no skinny flankers.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

The defensive ability of Geelong back 6 is vastly overrated. Scarlett is getting beaten more and more. David Hale kicked 8 goals on the weekend.

Geelong had 64 inside 50s to North Melbourne’s 35 on the weekend. Geelong is a great team because they have a great midfield.

Our back 4 KKP defenders (counting Rance) is a strength of the club, upgrading there is folly given our weakness elsewhere.

Big statement. How many big scores against them this year? And multiple goal scorers? A bloke kicks 8 one week and you reckon they are overrated? Everyone gets towelled at one point or another.

Of course it helps your backline if your midfield is winning the ball but Harley/Scarlett/Egan/Milburn are possibly the best 4 defenders in the league.

I'm not suggesting we get rid of them just that we recruit one real FB/CHB to compliment them.