Strong Minds WIN Hard Games

[doherz]

Spot on Massai. It is a view also shared by at least one member of the coaching panel.

For this reason alone I would be in favour of Malthouse coming to Tigerland. He at least seems able to get players mentally switched on.

where are you getting your mail from? Spill more deets please.

 

[jb03]

I feel tougher just for having read this thread. :hihi

Good for you Tooheys. I had neither the strong mind nor mental strength to read it all. But I agree with Massai regardless.

I prefer mb size posts.

 

[Massai]

I would suggest the complete opposite is in fact true. A bunch of underskilled players, through hard work, played above themselves in the back end of last year, as the other teams started to tire and creeped up to an 8 for 11 win loss ratio. Against the teams with true class they simply couldn't match it. Put them on an open ground like Subiaco and they could run their opposition off their feet and the skill errors didn't hurt as much. They have the toughness, they just haven't got the skill.

I think blaming the current situation on "soft players" is actually the soft option itself, equally as guilty as the poor approach to structuring a team that Richmond have undertaken since 2004. If you subscribe to the soft theory, you throw in a brutal pre-season and toughen these players up they will come back a different outfit and suddenly win more games.

Again, rubbish. Have any of you calling for this actually spent much time watching pre-season training? I would love to see any of you take on Matty White around the tan, Brett Delidio in the repeat sprints, even Jay Schulz in the power clean. I would pay good money to see any of you run until you throw up. These guys you are bagging did it all the time in the pre-season.

The other aspect that must be taken into account is a proper periodised training program simply will not let you flog these guys until they are "mentally strong". We lost Cotchin and and Conners to over-use injuries early in the season. How many more would you lose if you work these guys into the ground?

I think the answer is far more simple to name, and monumentally hard to fix. The list is not good enough, we just haven't got the cattle, and fixing that is going to take years.
/quote]

If I was the players age especially around age 25, I'd happily take them all on. I got thru the toughest selection course the military can throw at you. No food, no water for 3 days, throwing up from dehydration, people hallucating etc after 3 weeks of intensely hard physical exercise all designed to break you down mentally, in conditions hitting high 30's, marching with full kit 40Kg pack, rifle, webbing over 5 mongrel peaks down in the Stirling Ranges in WA back in the 80's.

I've been there and done that. Don't ever give me any crap about how hard these players train, THEY ARE NO WHERE NEAR THE ELITE MILITARY TRAINING and they never will be.

Try marching for 24 hours, with a 80Kg pack on your back, plus your combat gear, plus a 20 litre jerry can full of water (you're not allowed to drink it either). As for repetitive sprints been there done that, around the tan, no problems there either, try running the Tan with a 40Kg pack on your back (I've done that). How about these guys, have to dive into Sydney Harbour, swim 500 metres to one of the Navy vessels tied up, climb hand over hand on the stern hawser rope (that is vertical and wet the last 4 metres), do 100 push up's, 100 situp's, sprint to the Bullring (nose) at the bow and then dive other the side back into the water. Repeat that 3 times thank you very much.

No don't tell me that they are hard pushed already, that is pure utter *smile*.

They are mentally soft and they need a wake up call. The playing list is going to be pretty much the same over the next 2-3 years with the exceptions of over 30's going and perhaps a cull of only a few players, but that still leaves a number of players at Richmond and they've been underdeveloped.

BTW I'm not talking about training these guys into the ground. If they did the really hard stuff I did over a 3 week period and then copped even more of the same, that is drilling people into the ground. The whole idea of what I've been saying is get them outside their comfort zone, challenge them physically with hard exercises (individually or as a team) and find out who has it in them to do the hard yards.

Its not rocket science, they could probably do something pretty damn tough in 1 week, 2 would be better, 3 would stretch them and then they've got a full pre-season in front of them. What I've said in my posts, is that they are mentally down, they must be challenged to find it in themselves individually and as a team to get themselves back off the canvas.

Doing the hard yard stuff is a challenge, a number of the Richmond players could do it, some probably can't or wouldn't want to. The whole idea is to get the players into believing they can do anything, right now they appear to believe they can't do anything and that's frustrating for the players and its equally frustrating for us.

 

[linuscambridge]

If I was the players age especially around age 25, I'd happily take them all on. I got thru the toughest selection course the military can throw at you. No food, no water for 3 days, throwing up from dehydration, people hallucating etc after 3 weeks of intensely hard physical exercise all designed to break you down mentally, in conditions hitting high 30's, marching with full kit 40Kg pack, rifle, webbing over 5 mongrel peaks down in the Stirling Ranges in WA back in the 80's.

I've been there and done that. Don't ever give me any crap about how hard these players train, THEY ARE NO WHERE NEAR THE ELITE MILITARY TRAINING and they never will be.

Try marching for 24 hours, with a 80Kg pack on your back, plus your combat gear, plus a 20 litre jerry can full of water (you're not allowed to drink it either). As for repetitive sprints been there done that, around the tan, no problems there either, try running the Tan with a 40Kg pack on your back (I've done that). How about these guys, have to dive into Sydney Harbour, swim 500 metres to one of the Navy vessels tied up, climb hand over hand on the stern hawser rope (that is vertical and wet the last 4 metres), do 100 push up's, 100 situp's, sprint to the Bullring (nose) at the bow and then dive other the side back into the water. Repeat that 3 times thank you very much.

No don't tell me that they are hard pushed already, that is pure utter *smile*.

They are mentally soft and they need a wake up call. The playing list is going to be pretty much the same over the next 2-3 years with the exceptions of over 30's going and perhaps a cull of only a few players, but that still leaves a number of players at Richmond and they've been underdeveloped.

BTW I'm not talking about training these guys into the ground. If they did the really hard stuff I did over a 3 week period and then copped even more of the same, that is drilling people into the ground. The whole idea of what I've been saying is get them outside their comfort zone, challenge them physically with hard exercises (individually or as a team) and find out who has it in them to do the hard yards.

Its not rocket science, they could probably do something pretty damn tough in 1 week, 2 would be better, 3 would stretch them and then they've got a full pre-season in front of them. What I've said in my posts, is that they are mentally down, they must be challenged to find it in themselves individually and as a team to get themselves back off the canvas.

Doing the hard yard stuff is a challenge, a number of the Richmond players could do it, some probably can't or wouldn't want to. The whole idea is to get the players into believing they can do anything, right now they appear to believe they can't do anything and that's frustrating for the players and its equally frustrating for us.

Sorry Massai, I appreciate your passion for the cause, but these guys are footballers not commandos. The basic rule of training, they teach you this in year 10 phys ed, is specificity. You train the way you play. All that walking around with backpacks on will train you extremely well for..........um............walking around with back packs on.

I understand what you are saying, and no doubt there is a place for that style of training, but it is very small doses and you just can't flog the players the way you are suggesting. My god, imagine if you sent Shane Edwards off on one of your training camps, he would be lucky to tip the scales at 50 kilos by the time he came back to play footy!!!

Many clubs already attempt team building much the way you are describing. Kokoda track, hiking in high altitude in arizona, all of these techniques are designed to in some small way achieve the goals you are after.

Why then don't they go the whole hog and train them like commandos? A couple of reasons, firstly they can't fit that sort of training load into the program and still leave the players with the legs to get through the strength and conditioning they need to actually play football. And secondly, these guys are all precious assets of the RFC, you just can't risk having a Cotchin or a Delidio get injured sliding down a mud hill on the Kokoda trail. Cardinal sin of any S&C coach is to injure a player in training.

I appreciate your sentiments, but I just don't think it is the answer. Are you telling me that they all did the same training but only Rance came out with the courage to put his head over the ball? Do you reckon you could get any more out of Richo than he already gives? No doubt there are a few mentally soft players on the Tigers list, but I reckon most of them weren't actually playing last weekend!

P.S. By the way, I would actually love to let you loose on a few of the players just for fun. I would pay good money to watch you train Jordan Mc Mahon, Cleve Hughes and Nathan Brown, but that's besides the point.

 

[Massai]

God please NO don't do that to me, having to train Brown, McMahon, Brown would fall down in 4 minutes with a "groin strain", McMahon the first time he had to lift a heavy log, he'd have a hernia, then drop it on Brown's leg and bust it again. :rofl

Hughes, I happen to think might do okay, I think he's got PTSD from what he saw happen to Pollie and the tram. Getting his mind back on track will take time, he's young, if he gets the right medical support he should be okay. As long as he doesn't do what I did and lot of military people, coppers etc do bottle it all up inside only to have it come back and hit you in the guts years later.

I've got some faith in Hughes, it would help us all if we had more information as to what is going on with Cleve, Will Thursfield etc, they are the young players that have had some development they should be on the field playing this season out to find out if they can mix it or not.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I've got some faith in Hughes, it would help us all if we had more information as to what is going on with Cleve, Will Thursfield etc, they are the young players that have had some development they should be on the field playing this season out to find out if they can mix it or not.

You'd think Jeff Bond was there for these psychological issues.

 

[Massai]

You'd think Jeff Bond was there for these psychological issues.

Yeah well, one thing I've found PTSD is quite a specialised area for the Psychologists. Bond is a Sports Psychologist, I question what sort of experience he would have dealing with people with PTSD, like the recent Black Saturday people, Police, Para Medic's, Military etc. He maybe a Psychologist but his speciality is Sports Psychology. Cleve Hughes if he is suffering from PTSD should be seeing a Psychologist that deals extensively with PTSD related issues. I would imagine Cleve would also be suffering from major depression and anxiety related issues, as indeed Graeme Pollak would be doing as well. Of course I can only base that on my own experiences which were and are none too bloody pleasant.

I've had a whole year off work to date, I'm only just now starting to feel that maybe just maybe I'm turning the corner but its something that you have to find within yourself, the psychologist is only there to point you in the right direction and finding that direction can take a lot of time.

Personally I'd love to see Hughes back at FF, Pollie at CHB, I just wonder if they've got enough time on their respective sides to get over this hurdle otherwise they will be gone most likely at the end of the year, which would be tragic for both of them.

 

[Rosy]

  Cleve Hughes if he is suffering from PTSD should be seeing a Psychologist that deals extensively with PTSD related issues.  I would imagine Cleve would also be suffering from major depression and anxiety related issues, as indeed Graeme Pollak would be doing as well.   Of course I can only base that on my own experiences which were and are none too bloody pleasant.

Is there any actual evidence whatsoever, or any official mention, that Cleve has PTSD?  I've deleted several posts making the claim because if it's not true it could lead to legal implications, as was pointed out to me in regard to claims on a thread about another person at the club.  It also doesn't do the person himself any favours.

I have suffered PTSD and panic attacks myself and think they are something that should be discussed publicly, if not necessarily personally, but I don't think it would do anyone any favours to speculate about another person's mental condition and how it affects them. 

Those conditions can manifest several years after an event.  They can be smouldering in some dark recess of the mind unnoticed until something triggers them off, as was the case for me.  Public diagnosis and discussion wouldn't help someone get over their issues, and could intensify them. 

There's a big difference between natural grieving, sadness and malaise following a traumatic event and the kind of depression described here.  Out of courtesy to a person, and for legal reasons too, it's not something we should speculate about.

 

[Massai]

Fair enough Rosy, I'll keep my trap shut. Really all I'm asking is why the hell is Hughes playing VFL Reserves or somesuch. Its not making sense, now if he's fit and just not firing fair enough but it would be nice for the club to come out and say Hughes is playing where he's playing because we don't consider his game's good enough at present to be promoted to either Coburg or AFL. Me personally, I happen to think that Wallace and his Coaching Staff are just not interested in the guy, and they'd have to be pushed hard to give him a game at the top level. If push comes to shove then the Board should be pushing accordingly, Wallace and the Match Committee need to be bluntly told play the young players like Hughes, forget the Brown's, *smile*'s and King's, they're history, move forward stop looking back etc.

 

[Rosy]

Yeah I don't know about Cleve. Terry said he lost his way a bit, whatever that means. He's playing Coburg 1s this week so hopefully he's on his way back. Eat 'em Alive Cleve.

 

[Massai]

Yeah I don't know about Cleve. Terry said he lost his way a bit, whatever that means. He's playing Coburg 1s this week so hopefully he's on his way back. Eat 'em Alive Cleve.

Good to see, I hope he kicks 10 goals, that would put even more pressure on Wallace and Co to get him back into the FF spot in the senior team and give him several games in a row to show he's got what it takes.

Of course the FF is only as good as the supply of the ball that is delivered to him, on that score, with Cousins, Cotchin, Delidio, Foley, Tuck, Connors etc, you'd think the gameplan would be simple, grab the bloody ball and look upfield for the leading forward and kick it down his throat. Pretty simple really, oops I keep on forgetting the Richmond gameplan is all about mucking around between half back and centre before kicking a high ball to a flooded forward line where the FF is outnumbered by 3 defenders.

Silly me.

 

[Dyer Disciple]

Of course the FF is only as good as the supply of the ball that is delivered to him, on that score, with Cousins, Cotchin, Delidio, Foley, Tuck, Connors etc, you'd think the gameplan would be simple, grab the bloody ball and look upfield for the leading forward and kick it down his throat. Pretty simple really, oops I keep on forgetting the Richmond gameplan is all about mucking around between half back and centre before kicking a high ball to a flooded forward line where the FF is outnumbered by 3 defenders.

Indeed. :hihi

 

[Massai]

To me, its quite clear and simple, the entire playing list with the exception of around half a dozen players, DO NOT have the MENTAL STRENGTH to play AFL football.

In fact to be honest, Richmond teams over the past 2 decades plus fall into this category.

We've tried the old and true to form method "sack the bloody coach", "change football department staff" etc etc etc. To date in 27 odd years, none of it has worked period.

Finals football for this club is nothing more than a PIPE DREAM.

Look at the English Cricket Team when they play Australia, they virtually fall over the moment the Australian's arrive at the ground to play, in the last 19 years. Granted 2005 was an exception, England really took on the task, they did extra training, planning, the works, they worked their collective bottoms off under their then coach. WHY, they were sick and tired of being used as Whipping Boys by Australia.

Australia back in 2005, were carrying injuries, had players too old to do what they'd done previous Ashes, appeared ho hum and disinterested, plus the odd disciplinary issue (Andrew Symonds) as well. Even with all of the above, it was only one or two ball's that got England across the line and they played their guts out to get it, if Australia had played only half decently and consistently, they would have won, no matter how hard England tried.

Flash Forward to the 2007 Ashes Tour here Australia. Aussie Coach John Buchanan, organises a Special Camp for the entire Australian Ashes Squad. Shane Warne speaks out reckons it a lot of crap etc etc, but he goes and does it he has to. The Special Camp was run for 5 days by members of Australia's elite Special Air Services (SAS) unit. The players later admitted, that they'd never ever experienced anything like it, what the SAS threw at them physical and mentally, was a key preparation for what was to come, a 5-0 FLOGGING of England.

Richmond wins 8 of its last 11 games in 2008, things according to all and sundry inside the club are finally starting to look up. Cousins is signed up after a member/supporter revolt, people are starting to think, sh!t finally the Tigers have got some polish in the midfield to go with Cotchin, Coughlan, Tuck, Foley. Richardson had a pearler of a year on the Wing, came 3rd in the Brownlow and kicked goals to boot. The forward line was starting to function, whilst for the first time in a long time the defence was starting to look like it could actually stop the opposition from kicking a bag full of goals against Richmond.

Move to the finish of the 7th game of the 2009 season, Richmond has won one game and then luckily in my mind and probably a lot of people's minds. Fremantle whom Richmond flogged last season, has won 3, Melbourne has won a couple as well, leaving the Tigers pretty much firmly entrenched as BOTTOM DWELLER for 2009.

Yesterday's game, 1st quarter great stuff from Richmond, they had forward structure, they moved the ball as quickly as possible (play on) which stretched the Brisbane defenders who could not man up or double team the forwards. Result the Tigers were actually 19 points up at Quarter time.

Anyone including blind freddy, could see that Brisbane would come out really hard in the 2nd quarter, which they duly did. Immediately Brisbane started to tackle hard, man up, back up, shepherd, run hard and loose, the Richmond players body language said it all. Brisbane outscored the Tigers in that quarter, but the Tigers were still in it at Half time, if they knuckled down and did what they had to do.

3rd quarter, absolute shocker by Richmond, THEY GAVE UP, they waved the WHITE flag of surrender, Brisbane kicked more goals giving them the edge, we got a lucky goal on the 3/4 time siren thanks to a soft free kick to Simmonds.

Last quarter, Brisbane came out again hard, running hard, tackling, finding space, and the end result Richmond got nailed yet again.

Richmond players, play the game for around about 15 minutes or so. That is about the level of concentration they have as a team, they focus on all the correct things for about that amount of time then SWITCH OFF or GIVE UP. Either way, the playing list at Richmond are MENTALLY DEFICIENT, they have lost the ability to win, they panic, they're undisciplined, they don't chase, they don't run to clear space, they don't do the in and under, they kick or handball poorly, they don't look coming up field to see who is one on one or loose in the forward 50 and the list goes on.

Again it comes down to MENTAL ABILITY. Its clear cut to me that they do not have the necessary psychological means to ensure that they can handle the pressure applied to them by opposing teams. You can bet every AFL coach will be telling their players, apply some pressure to Richmond, the entire team will fold like a pack of cards, and those coaches would be right on.

So what are Richmond doing about it. Terry Wallace said post match it was patently clear that there are Richmond players who cannot handle the pressures of AFL, yet he has a playing list that he has to select 22 from each week, surely some of them can handle the pressure.

Leadership, WHAT BLOODY LEADERSHIP. Chris Newman will I've got no doubt be regretting his "relax" statement earlier this season, that is going to cost him the Captaincy and rightly so. Nathan Foley, lots of people say he's working his guts out, but he is, I haven't seen anything inspirational from Foley this season, no bursting thru the centre at clearances this year. So we've got a dud Captain and a dud Vice Captain, fantastic onfield leadership.

Does anyone have leadership in them at Richmond, YES, Matthew Richardson (injured out for 12 weeks or longer), Ben Cousin's most certainly ex WCE Skipper, Brett Delidio (possibly), Alex Rance (yes, concussion and all), Trent Cotchin again yes but he's only 18. So out of some 40 odd players/rookies, there are only around 5 players IMHO that have any sort of onfield/off field leadership ability. PRETTY SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS in my book. Richo out, Cotchin out (too young), Rance out injured and too young, that leaves Delidio and Cousins. Sack Newman and Foley right the hell now and replace them with Delidio as Skipper and Cousins as Vice Captain. If the media go ape sh!t over that, tough sh!t, the club has to act on the players and that would be a good start.

Why sack them now, why not??? Nothing being done about onfield leadership is simply not an option. Right now, Richmond need a couple of leaders who can provide some much needed flair and show off their skills. Delidio needs to stand up, being told he's skipper would force him to take his responsibilities a lot more seriously. Ben Cousins as VC, nothing more needs to be said about Ben's ability on field and off field, we've all seen it for years.

So that addresses the leadership on the field. What about the actual playing of the game on the field.

Take a lesson Richmond from Matthew Knights at Essendon and how the Essendon team is now playing the game. The game they played against Hawthorn on Friday night, brilliant. They ran, they backed up, they tackled, they took some fantastic marks, they shephered their team mates, they moved the ball up the middle FAST and they kicked goals. They put last years premiership team to shame. If Essendon play like that against us in a couple of weeks, they'll do us in by 100 points at least.

The lesson is clearly there, Richmond players must take risks, they must move the ball fast, they must tackle, they must back each other up, they must be disciplined, they must kick and handball to targets correctly, they must make the right on field decisions in order to win the game.

Problem is, they don't do any of the above, they have become a completely beaten rabble of a team and playing list.

Which leads me to the question of just what is the Richmond Sports Psychologist (22 years experience, AIS etc) doing about this farcial situation. From what I can see by what the players are displaying NOT BLOODY MUCH, so why is he still at Richmond being paid a handsome salary for producing sh!t soft weak in the mind players.

SACK THE SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST NOW. I'm sure Richmond could find another suitably qualified Sports Psychologist, one who is thinking a bit about how to sort out this mental mess that the Richmond playing group have become.

To me the solution is really quite simply. Players at end of season only get 4 weeks off, they're told that they must maintain their current fitness level, no slacking off hitting the p!ss or pizza's. Come 1 October 2009, they attend a Special Camp as well, the entire playing list, the current coaches and football department staff and the RFC Board of Management. The players are then put thru a series of extremely tough physical and mental exercises over a time period of at least 10 days. No doubt the players will b!tch moan and carry on about losing their extra 4 week break but that is just plain tough luck. The players at Richmond are paid to win games, something that hardly any of them seem to be able to do, so you're at the camp son to see if its worth the clubs money and resources in retaining you for 2010 and beyond.

The camp should (no it will identify) those who have got the necessary mental toughness and those who have not. It doesn't not matter a dam if a guy can kick the ball 60 metres down the throat of another RFC player, if that player has not got the necessary mental toughness in him, HE'S GONE. Why, he might be able to do all the training drills down pat, but come game day, he's a shot bird because game day is pressure day, training drills are not that pressurised, so he won't be able to replicate what he does on the training track out on the ground, when its so badly needed.

To be honest I seriously doubt whether this current playing list can WIN any of the remaining games this season. That is telling. Its telling because of the way the playing list play the game. Its telling because clearly the coaching is not up to the accepted AFL standard, its telling because the football department including the Sports Psychologist seem to have little or no idea of how to address any of these pressing issues now, even by taking simple steps that can be done starting today and ongoing thru the week.

For all the hopes and aspirations that many of the Richmond faithful had that finally in 2009, finals football was a go, its all come crashing down PITIFULLY HARD, in a reality check courtesy of the other AFL teams, which have clearly shown up Richmond's deficiencies not only in the players on the field but off the field as well.

Its time Gary March and his Board of Management stood up, got off their bottoms, called the players in, the coaches and football department staff in, and gave them collectively the BIGGEST BLUNTEST MESSAGE they can, get it together or start packing your bags for the biggest clean out that Richmond has seen in years.

Its time to get your act together Richmond Playing Group, if you cannot, will not or don't want to, then p!ss OFF and let a young player in that has more motivation have a crack instead.

What an absolute p!ss poor lot we've got down at Punt Road that are representing this once proud and feared club. The whole lot of them from Gary March down are nothing but a bloody disgrace, but they've got some time to start fixing the problems, so they'd better bloody get to it.

Any prospective Senior Coach, has got a lot to fix up, that there is no doubt, Rawlings is absolutely spot on, the CULTURE at Richmond MUST CHANGE. LOSERS NOT REQUIRED ONLY THOSE INTERESTED AND WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO WIN NEED TO APPLY BE THEY STAFF OR PLAYERS.