Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

MD Jazz

Nuance is hard to find
Feb 3, 2017
10,694
9,681
I’m conflicted on the union issue.
I agree with the need for unions in principal, workers need a supporting body to ensure their rights, their wages and make sure they’re not getting shafted by employers.

But they can be their own worst enemy too. Here’s a few of my own personal experiences with unions as a member.
I'm the same. They are definitely important in protecting the vulnerable from exploitation but geez they can do some *smile* things.

My personal experience was the wide comb dispute of the early80's. The AWU behaviour was abhorrent, lived on a farm at the time and blokes were guarding property from AWU attacks with firearms at the height of the dispute.

Worked for a paper/magazine distributor in the 90's and during a newspaper strike a couple of union thugs came down to our distibution warehouse and threatened the owner for coninuing to pick up and deliver the paper. They smashed the place up a bit and threatened the owner with baseball bats.

I've never been in a union. As an employer now we pay staff well above award rates. We have had union reps visit and request to talk to staff covered by awards. I tell the union reps I'd be happy to pay award rates, would cost us less. None of our guys have shown any interest in joing the union.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
8,988
13,927
Melbourne
Yep, there are morons everywhere, even in unions and some even get leadership positions.

As for playing political games aimed at gaining power within the ALP, I abhor this. Unions should distance themselves from the ALP and the sooner the better.

But if you need convincing that unions are necessary just look at the casualisation of the workforce and the exploitation in the "gig economy". We are going backwards in terms of working conditions. Add to that the reduction in real wages and the increasing share of total income going to capital as opposed to labour and then ask yourself if the deliberate weakening of unions has any relationship to this.

We need unions more than ever. We need morons in unions less than ever.

DS
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
19,135
20,085
So maybe I’ve just been a bit unlucky?
As I said, agree with the principal of unions, but haven’t met a good one yet…

Ive had some absolute barry crocker experiences with unions too Lazza,

But ive also had some doozys with schools, hospitals, police, and at the footy.

Yes, they can and should be better, but We need them.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
19,135
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Step 1 . Vote yes for voice to parliament

Step 2. treaty - beginning to make amends for our colonial history - truth and reconciliation. Own it, face it, teach it, reparate for it, memorialise it, put it at the start of the constitution.
Done concurrently with restoring native title as the legislation intended and intergenerational change fostering geniune respect for indigenous australians (historical truth in the stories we tell kids, which requires adults knowing the historical truth)

Probably take a generation to start to see positive results, measured by reductions in incaration and suicide, and increase in education and positions of power.

We have to try to start to work on and make amends for the very real causes of the intense mixture of pain, rage, self-loathing and hopelessness that aboriginal people are trying to medicate with grog

It wont be easy or cheap or pretty or quick,

But its culturally non-negotiable for Our Nation.

*proud to read RFC's statement on invasion day this morning
 
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MD Jazz

Nuance is hard to find
Feb 3, 2017
10,694
9,681
Step 1 . Vote yes for voice to parliament

Step 2. treaty - beginning to make amends for our colonial history - truth and reconciliation. Own it, face it, teach it, reparate for it, memorialise it, put it at the start of the constitution.
Done concurrently with restoring native title as the legislation intended and intergenerational change fostering geniune respect for indigenous australians (historical truth in the stories we tell kids, which requires adults knowing the historical truth)

Probably take a generation to start to see positive results, measured by reductions in incaration and suicide, and increase in education and positions of power.

We have to try to start to work on and make amends for the very real causes of the intense mixture of pain, rage, self-loathing and hopelessness that aboriginal people are trying to medicate with grog

It wont be easy or cheap or pretty or quick,

But its culturally non-negotiable for Our Nation.

*proud to read RFC's statement on invasion day this morning
Great post.
Stories we tell our kid is changing, schools are teaching actual history. My kids know more about indigenous culture than I ever did
The fact that most places now acknowledge the land they are on by naming the indigenous traditional owners/custodians before any cermeony or event or celebration is consistent. Yeh some will never accept that it happens but every time you hear it is another reminder Australian history didn't start with Cook.
Australia Day is becoming an opportunity to hear the real history for the older generation
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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20,085
Great post.
Stories we tell our kid is changing, schools are teaching actual history. My kids know more about indigenous culture than I ever did
The fact that most places now acknowledge the land they are on by naming the indigenous traditional owners/custodians before any cermeony or event or celebration is consistent. Yeh some will never accept that it happens but every time you hear it is another reminder Australian history didn't start with Cook.
Australia Day is becoming an opportunity to hear the real history for the older generation

Public discourse is moving in the right direction, although you have to mute the TV if Joyce or dutton or abbott appear,

black fella leaders are screaming that they are ready to move forward together, if only we acknowledge our past.

Its incredibly generous of them.

Its akin to kicking someone almost to death, unprovoked, and they stand up and offer to shake your hand. If we dont shake it, the only conclusion imo, is we are collectively culturally psychopathic.

It will be a very long and painful, but ultimately profoundly productive process.

vote yes

Propogate truth

Admire and understand the original Aussies, out loud and in public, in front of your kids and grandkids.

Dont let an opportunity to Correct racism through to the keeper
 
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MD Jazz

Nuance is hard to find
Feb 3, 2017
10,694
9,681
vote yes

Propogate truth

Admire and understand the original Aussies, out loud and in public, in front of your kids and grandkids.

Dont let an opportunity to Correct racism through to the keeper
This may be the hardest part. Changing the narrative with long time friends and sporting teammates is the tough. Teams are all about supporting each other through thick and thin. No local sporting team I ever played with (footy & cricket) had an indigenous player. So it was more ignorance than anything. Combine it with a media narrative that only ever shows indigenous drama (such as the current Alice Springs situation) and a blackfellas are drunks & lazy & violent narrative is confimred and agreed upon. Most would have barely had anything to do with an indigenous person. Most thiink they are whingers for impingeing on Aust day celebrations. They don't want to feel any guilt whilst eating sausages and getting smashed.

IMO its not about making the current generation feel guilty, its about acknowledging the past and the current disadvantage, and the casual racism that I and most others perpetuate without knowing it.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
19,135
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This may be the hardest part. Changing the narrative with long time friends and sporting teammates is the tough. Teams are all about supporting each other through thick and thin. No local sporting team I ever played with (footy & cricket) had an indigenous player. So it was more ignorance than anything. Combine it with a media narrative that only ever shows indigenous drama (such as the current Alice Springs situation) and a blackfellas are drunks & lazy & violent narrative is confimred and agreed upon. Most would have barely had anything to do with an indigenous person. Most thiink they are whingers for impingeing on Aust day celebrations. They don't want to feel any guilt whilst eating sausages and getting smashed.

IMO its not about making the current generation feel guilty, its about acknowledging the past and the current disadvantage, and the casual racism that I and most others perpetuate without knowing it.

I correct it in a non-confrontational, guilt free way when ever i can.

I struck up a conversation with a stranger on a seat the other day,

The conversation took the 'ive got nothing against aboriginals, but' turn

The fella recounted a story of a mine he worked on where a blackfella didnt pull his weight and drank on the job.

I listened and nodded and acknowledged his story,

I looked him in the eye And asked him, in a consistent style of the conversation,

'Do you reckon youde work hard and sober for people who stole your land and killed your ancesters?'

'Nuh' he said 'i dont suppose i would'

I wished him all the best

Onbiously it doesnt always go that smoothly,

But if gets too rough, you just reef your sail and turn around and go downwind
 
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MB78

I can have my cake and eat it too
Sep 8, 2009
7,820
1,811
See above
Thanks mate. I agree.

Just feel so helpless that the most vulnerable are being attacked by their own on a daily basis without action. The political landscape in the NT and the Feds for at least the last 3 years that they have referenced have failed them.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
19,135
20,085
IMO its not about making the current generation feel guilty

Thats fair enough.

But

1. I think the reconciliation process will inevitably make us feel our own guilt (a normal, transformational emotion) as truth propagates. I feel as guilty as *smile* that i live the life of riley on blood soaked stolen land, on slave labour. I dont need anyone to point that out to me. I teckon if you know and understand our history, and you dont feel any guilt, or at the very least a close approximation, youre probably a bit emotionally stunted.

2. When the time comes that individuals of the generation that understands the truth is still drafting and enforcing racist policy, speaking and feeling racist things, resisting reconciliation, they should be made to feel guilty, because theyre nasty *smile*
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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Thanks mate. I agree.

Just feel so helpless that the most vulnerable are being attacked by their own on a daily basis without action. The political landscape in the NT and the Feds for at least the last 3 years that they have referenced have failed them.

Yes its horrible. I feel it too.

Hopefully its a low point
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
20,967
14,701
What do we do here? So sad. I don’t have many ideas, besides giving people purpose.


Yes, it's very sad.

As Darren the baker said, they're on the streets because they're getting no love or care at home.

The chickens have come home to roost on Howard and Costello's $5,000 lump sum Baby Bonus. Some of these kids on the streets (probably most of them) parents received the 5k lump sum for having a baby.
The sad thing is that many of those who received the cash plash were at the time delinquents or close to it. Five thousand dollars, they must've thought all their Christmases had come at once.
Teachers play a very important role in society, and they do a fantastic job. You can teach someone to read and write, but the most important education children can receive is from their parents and extended family, they are their children's role model. Most of the kids running amok on the streets have had very poor role models.

Of those on the streets who are indigenous, they have little or no regard for their "elders". This is part of the problem too, elders used to be listened to and respected.

I've worked with many indigenous people, they are great people, it saddens me to see what is happening.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
42,476
15,586
If we lay the foundations now, the next generation, the kids who will grow up with these foundations, will make it the norm. It's too hard to change the amount of racism and bigotry Australia has amoungst the adult population. It needs to be their kids who grow up with a different education and mindset.

Much like all of Australia's past immigrant waves. Wogs, Greeks, Serbs, Lebs, Vietnamese etc etc. First generation copped it hard but when the second generation came through it was a lot easier. Third generation and it's all normal.

Albanese, 40 years ago, probably wouldn't have been elected because of his wog name.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
8,988
13,927
Melbourne
This may be the hardest part. Changing the narrative with long time friends and sporting teammates is the tough. Teams are all about supporting each other through thick and thin. No local sporting team I ever played with (footy & cricket) had an indigenous player. So it was more ignorance than anything. Combine it with a media narrative that only ever shows indigenous drama (such as the current Alice Springs situation) and a blackfellas are drunks & lazy & violent narrative is confimred and agreed upon. Most would have barely had anything to do with an indigenous person. Most think they are whingers for impingeing on Aust day celebrations. They don't want to feel any guilt whilst eating sausages and getting smashed.

IMO its not about making the current generation feel guilty, its about acknowledging the past and the current disadvantage, and the casual racism that I and most others perpetuate without knowing it.

I have always thought that we have a lot to do in terms of indigenous issues, but it makes a big difference when you actually interact with indigenous colleagues on a regular basis. When you can talk to indigenous people you know and start to have some understanding of their experiences it gives so much more insight into the struggle to live as a black fella in this country. I do work with a fair number of indigenous colleagues and what really p!sses me off is when they are so thankful when you do your job as normal when it involves them, they just expect to not be treated the same as everyone else. They shouldn't thank me for helping them out when that is my job, something I do for everyone, something they should expect but know they cannot expect because they are aboriginal. It just makes me angry that indigenous Australians have to go into every situation assuming they will be treated differently, treated worse than others. We have a lot of work to do, the more of us who have regular, everyday, contact with indigenous Australians the better, it is quite an education even if you already knew the history.

That's fair enough.

But

1. I think the reconciliation process will inevitably make us feel our own guilt (a normal, transformational emotion) as truth propagates. I feel as guilty as *smile* that i live the life of riley on blood soaked stolen land, on slave labour. I dont need anyone to point that out to me. I teckon if you know and understand our history, and you dont feel any guilt, or at the very least a close approximation, youre probably a bit emotionally stunted.

2. When the time comes that individuals of the generation that understands the truth is still drafting and enforcing racist policy, speaking and feeling racist things, resisting reconciliation, they should be made to feel guilty, because they're nasty *smile*

I understand this but I have never seen it as guilt. Yes, my forebears have been in this country for generations and who knows what they did. To me it is more about responsibility. I was not involved in the atrocities, I hope I haven't been racist, it happened before my time - these are the arguments which are regularly used to deflect any feelings of guilt. Which is why I think of it more as responsibility. I may not have been involved in past atrocities, the dispossession, stealing children and the like did happen (mostly, they were stealing kids until 1974) before my time. But, every day I live in this country, I benefit from the dispossession, the way I am treated better because I am not indigenous - if I accept the benefit of past actions then I am duty bound to take responsibility for them too and to do what I can to redress the harm and provide the opportunity for First Australians to enjoy their lives on their terms.

Is the Voice to Parliament the solution? Well, it certainly isn't the whole solution but to my thinking it is a good start. For too long indigenous Australians have had decisions made for them, it is time they were given power over their destiny and this is a step in that direction.

DS
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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I understand this but I have never seen it as guilt. Yes, my forebears have been in this country for generations and who knows what they did. To me it is more about responsibility. I was not involved in the atrocities, I hope I haven't been racist, it happened before my time - these are the arguments which are regularly used to deflect any feelings of guilt. Which is why I think of it more as responsibility. I may not have been involved in past atrocities, the dispossession, stealing children and the like did happen (mostly, they were stealing kids until 1974) before my time. But, every day I live in this country, I benefit from the dispossession, the way I am treated better because I am not indigenous - if I accept the benefit of past actions then I am duty bound to take responsibility for them too and to do what I can to redress the harm and provide the opportunity for First Australians to enjoy their lives on their terms.

Is the Voice to Parliament the solution? Well, it certainly isn't the whole solution but to my thinking it is a good start. For too long indigenous Australians have had decisions made for them, it is time they were given power over their destiny and this is a step in that direction.

DS

Yeah theres different ways to veiw guilt, and guilt and shame are close relatives.

Personally , I can feel guilty for things i dont do

If i dont phone my mum for 2 weeks, i feel guilt.

Equally, i enjoy the benefits of stolen land and i feel guilt though i didnt steal it

But i dont see the big drama with guilt.

It motivates me to ring my mum, and be respectful and grateful to the people whose stolen land i enjoy
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
15,683
10,457
Camberwell
It's fair enough. Non-union members have benefited from unions despite contributing nothing.
What if they could have benefited without them, or even got more ? Your statement is built on an assumption that what unions do always benefits employees.
I have seen some terrible deals negotiated by unions
I have also seen unions protect workers who absolutely should not have been protected just because they are members.
I have also seen unions play very important roles in protecting staff from unscrupulous employers. I am not anti union, the good ones anyway.
There is no easy answer to this but forcing employees to pay mandatory fees to unions on the assumption it is in the interest of the employees is to me going too far.
It would also increase the revenue of organisations who are the major donors to a political party and that to me is not good for our democracy.
 

spook

Tiger Legend
Jun 18, 2007
19,322
19,714
Melbourne
What if they could have benefited without them, or even got more ? Your statement is built on an assumption that what unions do always benefits employees.
I have seen some terrible deals negotiated by unions
I have also seen unions protect workers who absolutely should not have been protected just because they are members.
I have also seen unions play very important roles in protecting staff from unscrupulous employers. I am not anti union, the good ones anyway.
There is no easy answer to this but forcing employees to pay mandatory fees to unions on the assumption it is in the interest of the employees is to me going too far.
It would also increase the revenue of organisations who are the major donors to a political party and that to me is not good for our democracy.
Weekends, public holidays, four weeks holiday pay, leave loading, long service leave, parental leave, superannuation, health and safety protocols, sick days, smoko. And let's not forget the aqueducts.

Everyone who's had a job in the last hundred years can thank their union forebears.

Of course there has to be a balance and there are bad eggs, grifters and bullies just as there are in any power structure. But strong unions with strong ethical leadership are crucial to maintaining the balance between capital and labour. Unfortunately some of the bad ones make it all too easy for the minions of capital to demonise them.
 
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