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Talking Politics
- Thread starter Legends of 2017
- Start date
Anduril said:
Can you explain the reason for the scepticism Anduril? I haven't followed this that closely, in fact to me politics would be at home on Michael's apathy thread.
All I know is the rules were altered last week and that 15 terrorists have been arrested this morning.
My scepticism is founded on many things, mainly Howard's past record in regard to encouraging us to believe in Terror Australis.
As I understand on AM this morning the charges are in the main relating to belonging to a proscribed organisation, Christine Nixon said there was no actual terror target. I just don't want to jump to conclusions until all the facts are know, if indeed we will ever be alllowed to know them. If things were so dire why wasn't the threat upgraded last week? There are so many variables.
I feel we are probably a target because of East Timor, but it would have remained a small threat pre Iraq.
PS Iemma says they were stockpiling explosive chemicals in NSW- just on the news.
The media are going to be in a frenzy, I can see Ray's serious face now....
As I understand on AM this morning the charges are in the main relating to belonging to a proscribed organisation, Christine Nixon said there was no actual terror target. I just don't want to jump to conclusions until all the facts are know, if indeed we will ever be alllowed to know them. If things were so dire why wasn't the threat upgraded last week? There are so many variables.
I feel we are probably a target because of East Timor, but it would have remained a small threat pre Iraq.
PS Iemma says they were stockpiling explosive chemicals in NSW- just on the news.
The media are going to be in a frenzy, I can see Ray's serious face now....
First of all, these are ALLEGED terrorists.
The proscribed organisation charge is to give the authorities time to piece together evidence they recovered this morning and frame further charges.
No actual target should be taken to mean that the police think the alleged plotters went about acquiring a bomb (or whatever) and would then decide what to do with it.
The terror alert rating wasn't raised so as not to compromise the operation.
Anyway, the accused now front the court in exactly the same fashion as any other person charged with a criminal offence in Australia. Much more transparent than if a suspect had managed to get shot in the head this morning.
The proscribed organisation charge is to give the authorities time to piece together evidence they recovered this morning and frame further charges.
No actual target should be taken to mean that the police think the alleged plotters went about acquiring a bomb (or whatever) and would then decide what to do with it.
The terror alert rating wasn't raised so as not to compromise the operation.
Anyway, the accused now front the court in exactly the same fashion as any other person charged with a criminal offence in Australia. Much more transparent than if a suspect had managed to get shot in the head this morning.
Anduril said:
I think it's sad if such a serious issue is judged on party beliefs. I hope every pollie and cop in the country is together on this no matter their personal prejudices.
Hard to imagine innocent people stockpiling explosive chemicals and opening fire on police. One alleged terrorist was shot this morning after allegedly first opening fire himself.
Whether they are found guilty or not I'm glad the government and cops are on the terrorist case before, rather than after, they strike.
I'm not judging on political beliefs, my initial reaction, like many I've spoken to last week, was based on past record of spin doctoring and misinformation. A bit like the boy who cried wolf syndrome.
Better go to work, at least it's cooler for exams today.
Better go to work, at least it's cooler for exams today.
I'm on your bandwagon Anduril. All too convenient for my cynical liking. I have no doubt that the accused parties arrested will in fact be shown to be of some risk due to their extemist views, but all bar one of the arrested are Australian citizens, some Aus. born so they haven't just hopped off the boat yesterday. I would personally like to think if there has been concern towards their intentions, that we would've been aware of it by now, that they would've acted quickly and appropriately, and not allowed the incident to appear like a carefully choreographed media event that it has become.Anduril said:
Of course they're Australian citizens. The London bombers were born and bred in England. Those rioting on the French housing estates may look North African but were almost all born in France.
Young Muslims in Western societies all over the world feel alienated. Not just by the secular society around them, but by entrenched socioeconomic disadvantage. In a very small minority this has the potential to manifest itself in terrorism.
Young Muslims in Western societies all over the world feel alienated. Not just by the secular society around them, but by entrenched socioeconomic disadvantage. In a very small minority this has the potential to manifest itself in terrorism.
Which basically raises the question as to how succesful multiculturalism is in the first place. It's always going to be a powder keg situation when you have extremism in any shape, I personally have the issues with any form of extremeism, don't care which God they barrack for. The absolute need to shove beliefs down other people's throats is a dangerous practise regardless of what they may be. I cringe just as much when I read the comments made by various proud Christian types in the H/Sun, which basically display a huge lack of understanding and compassion for anyone else's beliefs or lack of. IMO it's the greatest example of hypocrisy around, when the good book is there to reiterate the fact that people are supposed to be tolerant and forgiving in order to be a good Christian and the words displayed are the very opposite. Sad state of affairs.
frahlee said:
I don't care if they're 3rd generation Australians or people who've just dropped by for a specific purpose. If there's any suspicion at all about our safety being compromised, no matter the nationality, I'd hope action was taken to prevent it.
I don't understand people being so cynical considering the discovery of explosives and of shots being fired at police, or do they think those claims are fabrication or plants?
I'm usually cynical by nature but if a terrorist attack has been averted it's irrelevant to me which political party or religious persuasion the people protecting our safety are.
No Rosie, I'm not querying the validity of what occured this morning, my issue lies in the timing. As to the comments regarding religion of our protectors, irrelevant. That isn't the path I was treading, moreso just voicing my OWN concerns about how I am personally just as concerned by the mentality of those that march behind ANY religious banner in order to berate or persecute others, all and sundry.rosy23 said:
Basically because they don't simply see themselves as disadvantaged. They see themselves as profoundly disadvantaged with a specific religious and ethnic identity. This leads to some form of organisation among them. (The situation in France is far worse than anything here. People have been left to rot in high-rise estates, with one-third unemployment and no prospects of improvement, on the suburban fringe for thirty years. Or people who emigrated to work in the Lancashire mill towns, lost their jobs when the factories all closed and got forgotten about.)
Contrast to the situation in Macquarie Fields. That incident was highly localised and disorganised. Someone dies, locals blame the police, attack the police, and eventually things return to what passes for normal -- run-down area with high unemployment and poor relations between the police and the community.
However, with disadvantaged Muslim youth there's an all-consuming cultural narrative to tap into. With so many identifying with each other, in France this has provided the critical mass for widespread public disorder rather than just some local rioting that peters out. This can also provide a rationale for more extreme acts. It's the "things are bad for me because I'm a Muslim" mentality. Examples of all this all over the world as well as in their own back yard. You only need one persuasive extremist to point a few kids in the wrong direction and there's a major problem. Doesn't matter that the rest of the Muslim community abhor violence and teach their youngsters to behave with decorum and restraint even when they're copping *smile* from all sides, because you only need half a dozen committed nutters and hey presto, potential for serious incident.
But what's the answer? No-one knows.
Contrast to the situation in Macquarie Fields. That incident was highly localised and disorganised. Someone dies, locals blame the police, attack the police, and eventually things return to what passes for normal -- run-down area with high unemployment and poor relations between the police and the community.
However, with disadvantaged Muslim youth there's an all-consuming cultural narrative to tap into. With so many identifying with each other, in France this has provided the critical mass for widespread public disorder rather than just some local rioting that peters out. This can also provide a rationale for more extreme acts. It's the "things are bad for me because I'm a Muslim" mentality. Examples of all this all over the world as well as in their own back yard. You only need one persuasive extremist to point a few kids in the wrong direction and there's a major problem. Doesn't matter that the rest of the Muslim community abhor violence and teach their youngsters to behave with decorum and restraint even when they're copping *smile* from all sides, because you only need half a dozen committed nutters and hey presto, potential for serious incident.
But what's the answer? No-one knows.
frahlee said:
Understood frahlee but seeing it was a massive operation that involved federal and state governements and a few hundred police I think it would be hard to manufacture the timing of the busts.
Maybe the timing of the work relations meetings were timed to coincide with the busts though.
To me it's simple really. Before any terrorist attack is good timing...after an attack is shocking timing.
How would this explain muslim terrorists in muslim countries? I think too many are trying to jsutify/excuse these murderous cowards by claiming discrimination. There is racism/religious bigotry all over the world, but to me, it's been the actions of these extremists that have brought this out more. People complaining about muslims being persecuted when police arrest muslims. Well, it is muslim extremists that have committed these crimes and brought unwanted hatred/suspicion on the vast majority of peace loving, law abiding Islamic community. I'm not religious and I don't really care what religion people are, to me people are judged on their actions and behaviour.Ready said:
rosy23 said:frahlee said:
Understood frahlee but seeing it was a massive operation that involved federal and state governements and a few hundred police I think it would be hard to manufacture the timing of the busts.
Maybe the timing of the work relations meetings were timed to coincide with the busts though.
To me it's simple really. Before any terrorist attack is good timing...after an attack is shocking timing.
Absolutely concur Rosie, as mentioned, only opinion on my behalf for what it's worth. Interesting reading though on ninemsn news updates, have copied some as follows:
A former intelligence officer and security expert who criticised the timing of the prime minister's public warning last week, said yesterday's raids did not vindicate the prime minister's action. "I am more appalled than I was before," Warren Reed told Today. "There are people in the intelligence system who are disgusted at the politicking last week." "[They are also disgusted by] the fact that on the federal front, they haven't been helped in ways they should have been. "There is open warfare between the AFP and ASIO. There's an intense hatred there."
'Open warfare'
Mr Reed told Today the intelligence system was working very well at the coal face. "There are people out there doing a lot of good work." "But inside the federal system, there are too many people involved in this who have no track record in intelligence." "It is very difficult for people working at the coal face to work with people in Canberra who really don't know what they are talking about." "That's a huge problem." "It's working well at the coal face, but in Canberra it's a dog's breakfast."
Legends of 1980 said:
No-one is excusing anything. The fact is that in the West there are a lot of disaffected Muslims, some of whom will be prone to extremist ideologies.
However this does not give the police carte blanche to go around harrassing Muslims going about their daily business, just because they inherited the Islamic faith from their parents who emigrated here when they were unable to provide a decent quality of life for their families in their country of origin. Shocking waste of resources too. We're looking for fifty-odd at the most out of a couple of hundred thousand. At the same time the authorities ought to be building good community relations rather than persecuting individuals to the extent they become fodder for recruitment. It shouldn't be too hard for any of us to recognise that a Muslim and a Muslim extremist are two separate things.
As for your comment about Muslim countries, I assume you are talking about Iraq. There are a lot of people in Iraq who want the Yanks out and will stop at nothing to see it happen. Meanwhile with the Americans having no control so there is a power vacuum waiting to be filled, so Iraqis kill other Iraqis. If you need followers, religion is a convenient banner to march behind.
