Talking Politics

[Baloo]

Are you for real? Pulling stuff up from the past, recent past, is standard politics and valid. Its shows form, and policy intent and philosophy. The Libs did it a bit (MT pulled the pin on it) with a CT/ ETS, and fiscal irresponsibility with the GFC stimulous package. (I'm not bagging them for that in those instances, just making the point that it is standard practice).

On Abbott and the CT, I was just making the point that even if the Medicare campaign was a scare campaign, (it wasn't), the Libs are the masters of it.

Nothing loony about it baloo. Actions provide a window to intent and philosophy, its basic policy analysis.

Yep. OK.

 

[Ian4]

I saw a newspaper article on Facebook last week that quoted a govt minister talking about this back in February (I'll post the article if I can locate it).

article here on 9/2/16:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30767296/government-eyes-massive-medicare-health-privatisation/

and follow up article here on 10/2/16:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30777466/health-minister-says-medicare-has-to-be-moved-on/

 

[Baloo]

It would replace back-office operations done by bureaucrats.
They would administer claims and payments while overseeing eligibility criteria, meaning they would require access to people’s sensitive private information.
Doctors would also have to open their books to the provider, which would be subject to regulatory oversight.

Doesn't sound like privatisation to me. It sounds like that are outsourcing bits which would better managed bu someone other than public servants.

I don't so anything that suggest Medicare will be killed

 

[tigersnake]

Doesn't sound like privatisation to me. It sounds like that are outsourcing bits which would better managed bu someone other than public servants.

I don't so anything that suggest Medicare will be killed

So you agreed they plan to privatize the billing. History shows that when you privatize something, charges go up. (Tiketek anyone?). Now what about the cuts to certain services and the GP charge? That was point, I've stated repeatedly and about as crystally-clear as I possibly can. They will not privatize medicare in one fell swoop, they will slice and dice it until it is a shadow of its former self. That's the politically smart way to achieve your ultimate goal.

 

[Baloo]

So you agreed they plan to privatize the billing. Now what about the cuts to certain services and the GP charge? That was point, I've stated repeatedly and about as crystally-clear as I possibly can. They will not privatize medicare in one fell swoop, they will slice and dice it until it is a shadow of its former self. That's the politically smart way to achieve your ultimate goal.

Er, I said it looks like they are outsourcing. Prettysure I said "Doesn't sound like privatisation to me."

But yeah, OK, you're right again.

 

[tigersnake]

Er, I said it looks like they are outsourcing. Prettysure I said "Doesn't sound like privatisation to me."

But yeah, OK, you're right again.

How is outsourcing the billing of medicare different to privatizing the billing of medicare again?

And yes, I am right again. Slice and dice.

 

[Baloo]

How is outsourcing the billing of medicare different to privatizing the billing of medicare again?

And yes, I am right again. Slice and dice.

How is outsourcing medicare billing privatising medicare ?

But yeah, ok. I might go read some Bolt for balance

 

[lukeanddad]

How is outsourcing medicare billing privatising medicare ?

But yeah, ok. I might go read some Bolt for balance

The darn government has privatised cleaning and gardening as well

 

[tigersnake]

How is outsourcing medicare billing privatising medicare ?

But yeah, ok. I might go read some Bolt for balance

How many times do I have to say it? slice and dice, a haircut there, a restructure here, the outsourcing of a section over there etc etc, so it goes. Outsourcing the billing of medicare is privatizing a component of medicare, that's what I've said all along, and that's what the ALP campaign said. Fully or partially charging for certain services, eg CT scans, is the effective privatization of another component, pretty soon, there are more private components than medicare components.

 

[Ian4]

Er, I said it looks like they are outsourcing. Prettysure I said "Doesn't sound like privatisation to me."

you're taking the p!ss, right? unless the outsourcing is done by another government agency, then how is outsourcing not a form of privatisation?

 

[Lazarus]

How is outsourcing medicare billing privatising medicare ?

But yeah, ok. I might go read some Bolt for balance

Smashing it JBC. Nailed it about the fringes of both sides of politics - both as bad as each other.

Waleed Aly wrote a very good piece last week in the age. Will see if I can link it here.

 

[Baloo]

you're taking the p!ss, right? unless the outsourcing is done by another government agency, then how is outsourcing not a form of privatisation?

No, I never take the *smile*.

To me it's a very easy distinction. Privatisation would be picking it all up, lock stock and barrel, and selling it to the highest bidder, or floating it. Think Telstra. Outsourcing parts is looking at what functions of an organisation, like medicare, would be better managed by a specialised firm and give them the contract to do it. The Government would be paying them to do the work on an ongoing basis. If they took the same approach with unemployment benefits were the payments were outsourced, would you be claiming the government has privatised the dole ?

Distinction is very clear and obvious. If you can't see it try opening the other eye

 

[tigersnake]

No, I never take the p!ss.

To me it's a very easy distinction. Privatisation would be picking it all up, lock stock and barrel, and selling it to the highest bidder, or floating it. Think Telstra. Outsourcing parts is looking at what functions of an organisation, like medicare, would be better managed by a specialised firm and give them the contract to do it. The Government would be paying them to do the work on an ongoing basis. If they took the same approach with unemployment benefits were the payments were outsourced, would you be claiming the government has privatised the dole ?

Distinction is very clear and obvious. If you can't see it try opening the other eye

OK I'll take your point re terminology baloo. I think its one of style rather than substance. Privatisation is flogging the lot, outsourcing, cutting and picking services to charge for is done by section. But what about mine re the slow and steady substantive erosion of Medicare? Which has commenced, and signs point to that continuing.

The end result is the same, or similar, our healthcare system will be headed towards being a mostly profit-making, user-pays system.

T

 

[Baloo]

Outsourcing is continually paying for the service the outsourcer provides. The government would be paying the people doing the payment management. The government still owns medicare and the service, they just get someone else to operationalise it.

If anything the government are making this more efficient so that it costs the tax payer less to deliver the same service. Total opposite of what you are concluding.

 

[tigersnake]

Outsourcing is continually paying for the service the outsourcer provides. The government would be paying the people doing the payment management. The government still owns medicare and the service, they just get someone else to operationalise it.

If anything the government are making this more efficient so that it costs the tax payer less to deliver the same service. Total opposite of what you are concluding.

Once you introduce the profit motive, charges go up. What it will do in this case is transfer costs from the treasury to the user. Which, hey presto, is what the coalition wants, and what neo liberal theory says should happen. Its not the opposite of what I said, its exactly the same.

So, and I know you either won't be able to get your head around this or admit it, but this proves my point, and goes back to my earlier point about 'people with good private health care not wanting a cent of their taxes subsidising anyone who doesn't'.

Treasury, or 'the taxpayer' pays less, the user, the sick person, pays more.

Also, a separate point, research is pretty much accepted now that outsourcing might often brings costs down, but its due to reduced quality of service, not some mythology about the private sector being more efficient.

 

[poppa x]

The end result is the same, or similar, our healthcare system will be headed towards being a mostly profit-making, user-pays system.

Medicare will never make a profit.
It currently costs (or loses) $10,000,000,000 p.a.
No private business in their right mind would ever consider buying it.
It will always stay in Government hands - as it should.
But if we can make the payments system more efficient, then we should.

 

[tigersnake]

Medicare will never make a profit.
It currently costs (or loses) $10,000,000,000 p.a.
No private business in their right mind would ever consider buying it.
It will always stay in Government hands - as it should.
But if we can make the payments system more efficient, then we should.

Absolute bulldust pop. The US healthcare system makes humungous profits, minds bogglingly huge. I'll try and trak it down, but I saw a list of procedures and what they cost in the US V here. It was pretty amazing. It was like eg a knee reconstruction, here $5K, the US $40K. (I have no idea but the differences were that big, bigger). This is the result of a conga line of profit making organisations and individuals with there hand out down the line. 15 profit making middlemen there vs 2 or 3 wage earning middlemen here.

 

[Baloo]

Medicare wil not be privatised. No Australian would do that or allow it to happen. US is about the only country without state sponsored or mandated healthcare. Trying to equate outsourcing payments is ridiculous

 

[tigersnake]

Medicare wil not be privatised. No Australian would do that or allow it to happen. US is about the only country without state sponsored or mandated healthcare. Trying to equate outsourcing payments is ridiculous

It ain't ridiculous. You can say its debateable, you can say its questionable, you can say its drawing a bit of a long bow, (you'd be wrong but you could say it). You can't say its ridiculous. Thin end of the wedge. You have to start somewhere. And that is not all that is happening. You've been dodging/ conveniently ignoring the fact that the Coalition has already moved to privatise, remove subsidies and charge for them for various services and procedures, and flagged more.

It seems like you value medicare baloo. If Australians don't want it to happen, think about what the party they vote for policies are on the matter.

 

[Baloo]

The only reason I got suckered into this debate is that I found it absurd that people could legitimately claim the labour scare campaign that voting for LNP meant losing medicare was with merit.

It was one of the more dishonest attack campaigns I had seen and it was based purely on FUD.

Medicare wont die. It will be tweaked, worked on and fine tuned. No government will take it away but as a tax payer I am glad the governments are looking at how it can be less a drain on the country. Call me whatever you want but I really don't see what the issue is with paying $10 to see a Doctor. having this completely free system we have for many basic services if just opening up the system for exploitation and abuse.

Much like Social Security, there is a need for every society to protect it's weakest and unfortunate. But when that starts to extend to those that don't really need it I have an issue. Middle class welfare is something Howard institutionalised in this country and I hate it. Negative gearing is another case of giving tax breaks to those that don't need it. But when you have an unmarried mother with 7 kids off 8 different husbands (tests proved inconclusive on one of the rugrats) living off my taxes and complaining about it, I have an issue.

Society everywhere seems to have lost the concept of personal accountability and responsibility. It will be / is the western civilisation's downfall.