Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

DavidSSS said:
You see this is the crux of the problem with economic fundamentalists.

They take the view that it is people who serve the economy. People need to sacrifice so that the economy is healthy.

I take the view that the economy should serve the people. If the economy does not meet the needs of the people then it is the economy which needs to change, not the people.

Oh, and yes, I do agree with guaranteed minimum income. I also find work for the dole offensive, if you work you should get a wage not unemployment benefits.

People are more important than the economy.

DS
The economy is not a thing. It is not something to serve, it is just a process or system by which goods and services are produced, sold, and bought. Scarcity is something that can’t be wished away, you either organise society around maximising the efficient use of scarce resources so we can all enjoy as high a standard of living as possible, or you fall for childish notions that socialism can negate economic reality.

The statement “People are more important than the economy” is full of concept confusion, people and the economy are not values to be ranked one as more important than the other. It is people’s values that determine how they want to structure their economic decisions. I think it fairly important that people understand basic economics so that they can make informed decisions and not fall for charlatan ideas like guaranteed minimum income that have no limit as to what constitutes “minimum” as it is completely arbitrary, and rely on property theft to fund them.
 
Brodders17 said:
many animals were being hunted to extinction before governments stepped in. tigers are just one example. rhinos another.
super trawlers make sense because they allow boats to go further and stay on the seas longer, helping make more money. if there is no regulation the amount of fish killed and thrown away will be huge. they will fish areas until there is no fish left then move on.
'economic migrants' are a tiny % of those travelling to Australia and other places by boat. (ill exclude the movement of people from Africa to Europe cos i dont know enough about that area.) as long as there is war, and extreme violence their will be people trying to move to safe places. regardless in your ideal world there will be no migrants because there will be no countries. anyone who can buy entry to an area will be welcome. in your world of free people movement there would be more people moving to wealthy areas where jobs etc are.
Pretty sure they are still being hunted to extinction regardless of government attempts to stop it. For example the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have an abysmal success rate of less than 1 percent despite an average yearly budget of nearly $2 billion. Pretty sure rhinos and tigers are predominantly on public land and not private land, and governments making rhino horns illegal has disincentivised private ownership of them and incentivised poaching.

If water resources were private, the owners would have an incentive to preserve the capitial value of the resource, super trawlers would deplete the resource hence they would not be profitable compared to ensuring a lasting supply of fish.

They are not a tiny percentage, you don’t travel all the way from the Middle East and Sri Lanka to Australia for safety. The huge influx of migrants to Europe recently is by far a result of welfare benefits to migrants it is ludicrous.

People moving to where they can best exercise their talents while gaining permission from land owners for that privilege, gee what a horror scenario!
 
Giardiasis said:
Eh, I think unfair privilege or unequal treatment before the law is probably more accurate than wealth disparity.

Your list of bad guys are not features of capitalism, they are all in fact enemies of private property rights. Socialism has enhanced their ability to steal, vandalise, etc. Animal poachers find it much more profitable when the government makes the products they sell illegal, super trawlers make sense only when fisheries are not privatised (see tragedy of the commons), crooked bankers are in cohorts with politicians that allow them to print money out of nothing so they can fund government spending, human traffickers make a killing when welfare benefits lure economics migrants, and ecological issues with mining see the tragedy of the commons again.

You might want to try and understand what capitalism is a bit more before you start pointing the finger.

Fantasy land yet again, these false dichotomies get tiresome, the saviour, the villain, so out of touch with reality that I wonder whether you are deliberately trolling.
 
bullus_hit said:
Fantasy land yet again, these false dichotomies get tiresome, the saviour, the villain, so out of touch with reality that I wonder whether you are deliberately trolling.
I addressed each of your points, you respond with predictable diatribe. I’ve also provided pretty detailed justifications for my opinions, something that I haven’t got from you. That’s all that needs to be said really.
 
Giardiasis said:
I addressed each of your points, you respond with predictable diatribe. I’ve also provided pretty detailed justifications for my opinions, something that I haven’t got from you. That’s all that needs to be said really.

See this is your problem, you dismiss with half a sentence & then think you're some intellectual genius. Take for example your comment about bankers, I've just posted that 1 trillion has been spent by lobbyists which indicates that it's not governments but self interested capitalists corrupting the system. At least governments have to wrestle with a myriad of problems instead of being narrow with their agenda. As for selling the ocean, you know this is bunkem, water travels via currents, fish migrate, ice sheets retract & expand. The fact that you see nature as a commodity disturbs me, this is the exact mindset which enables poachers to plunder endangered wildlife. The profit motive is such a blinkered way to view the world, not only is it abstract but it assumes the earth's resources are infinite.

But here's an honest question for you, in all the ranting & theoretical pontificating have you even convinced one person that you have the perfect formula? The answer to that question should be the cue to expand your horizons a little bit. Listening would be a good start, there's more to life than a dodgy libertarian website.
 
bullus_hit said:
See this is your problem, you dismiss with half a sentence & then think you're some intellectual genius. Take for example your comment about bankers, I've just posted that 1 trillion has been spent by lobbyists which indicates that it's not governments but self interested capitalists corrupting the system. At least governments have to wrestle with a myriad of problems instead of being narrow with their agenda. As for selling the ocean, you know this is bunkem, water travels via currents, fish migrate, ice sheets retract & expand. The fact that you see nature as a commodity disturbs me, this is the exact mindset which enables poachers to plunder endangered wildlife. The profit motive is such a blinkered way to view the world, not only is it abstract but it assumes the earth's resources are infinite.

But here's an honest question for you, in all the ranting & theoretical pontificating have you even convinced one person that you have the perfect formula? The answer to that question should be the cue to expand your horizons a little bit. Listening would be a good start, there's more to life than a dodgy libertarian website.

right on.
 
bullus_hit said:
See this is your problem, you dismiss with half a sentence & then think you're some intellectual genius. Take for example your comment about bankers, I've just posted that 1 trillion has been spent by lobbyists which indicates that it's not governments but self interested capitalists corrupting the system. At least governments have to wrestle with a myriad of problems instead of being narrow with their agenda. As for selling the ocean, you know this is bunkem, water travels via currents, fish migrate, ice sheets retract & expand. The fact that you see nature as a commodity disturbs me, this is the exact mindset which enables poachers to plunder endangered wildlife. The profit motive is such a blinkered way to view the world, not only is it abstract but it assumes the earth's resources are infinite.

But here's an honest question for you, in all the ranting & theoretical pontificating have you even convinced one person that you have the perfect formula? The answer to that question should be the cue to expand your horizons a little bit. Listening would be a good start, there's more to life than a dodgy libertarian website.
Certainly not an intellectual genius, none of my arguments are original ideas which is what intellectual genius' are capable of. I at least have the decency to attempt to address your points. Fair enough it looks like I missed that one, I’ll address it now. I won’t count on the same from you in return for all the missed points you’ve failed to address.

The problem with the huge amount of money spent on lobbying government isn’t about the lobbying but about why it is effective. Government has the power to bestow privilege and it has no qualms on using that power, so failing to lobby the government will leave businesses exposed. If the government didn’t have that power in the first place, then lobbying would serve no purpose. Lobbying for government privilege is generally not capitalistic because it often seeks privilege rather than freedom from government interference. Again, you need to check your understanding of capitalism which is a system of private ownership of the means of production coupled with market exchanges of goods/services without government interference. The capitalists you bemoan are actually acting as socialists.

Governments have to wrestle with a myriad of problems that they are in no position to wrestle with. They also only have to wrestle with these problems within short election periods. So basically, you end up with never ending growth of government with no thought to preserving capital values in the long term. Without the profit motive, they lack the ability to efficiently allocate resources and at best they can achieve a similar result to the market but in the vast majority of cases government action leads to general impoverishment.

No it is not bunkum, it is the only solution that works in the best interests of long term capital value. Poachers plunder endangered wildlife because the government makes it extremely profitable for them to do so and because it takes away the incentive to nurture these animals in the long term. If it wasn’t illegal to sell Rhino horns for example, private people would be able to farm rhinos, greatly boosting their numbers. The fact you don’t see nature as a commodity is not truthful as you just have a different use value then others might have.

The profit motive is abstract, what is wrong with that? That’s the nature of subjective value, you either deal with that reality or kick and scream and have a tantrum.

Action attempts to exchange a less desirable condition for a more desirable one, and costs are incurred to achieve a goal. The difference between the value of the costs and of the goal is called profit. Under no circumstances does it assume the earth’s resources are infinite, that is a bizarre claim.

I don’t have the perfect formula, I’ve never claimed that. I find most people have a strong socialist bias deep within them so I doubt I convince many people of anything since it is those people that I find myself arguing with. It would be a pretty arrogant to think otherwise, but is that the case for you?
 
On your definition every capitalist society which has ever existed has really been socialist. There has never been a capitalist economy without some level of government intervention in the economy. Mixed economies are a feature of capitalism. Your favourite period, mentioned some pages ago, was the era of mercantalism. Still, we now live in a modern version where governments no longer open up colonies for capital to exploit, rather they subsidise the research which leads to innovative products to sell (such as subsidising Xerox who invented the mouse and graphical user interface, and many more examples although the internet was invented by government not just subsidised).

Scarcity is assumed by free market economists to be infinite because they assume infinite wants. It's ludicrous stuff. Scarcity can't be wished away if we have a system based on private property, but it certainly can be inflated to absurd levels by a society which promotes capital accumulation for the sake of it.

But, let's get specific: if people cannot sell their labour for a high enough price to support themselves with the basics (food, shelter etc) should they starve while we keep the economy pure and protect private property, or what? Which do you think is more important?

While we're on the topic of efficiency, which you mention above, should we retain the public health systems we have in many countries, or go down the US market solution which is so much less efficient (higher proportion of GDP spent on health yet worse outcomes). I know you will argue that it isn't a free market in the US, but one of the consistent arguments of advocates of free markets is that the closer you can get to a free market the better, and the US Health system is certainly closer to a free market than any public health system, yet less efficient. Also, the whole idea of a "perfectly competitive market" which is the ideal of market economists includes assumptions such as perfect knowledge, infinite buyers and sellers, no barriers to entry. Yet these same people accuse others of being unrealistic.

DS
 
So loosely talking politics. A bit of trivia for you all. Richmond FC - with over 100k members - have quite a few more members than the two biggest Australian political parties (ALP and L/NP) combined! ;D
 
Giardiasis said:
Certainly not an intellectual genius, none of my arguments are original ideas which is what intellectual genius' are capable of. I at least have the decency to attempt to address your points. Fair enough it looks like I missed that one, I’ll address it now. I won’t count on the same from you in return for all the missed points you’ve failed to address.

The problem with the huge amount of money spent on lobbying government isn’t about the lobbying but about why it is effective. Government has the power to bestow privilege and it has no qualms on using that power, so failing to lobby the government will leave businesses exposed. If the government didn’t have that power in the first place, then lobbying would serve no purpose. Lobbying for government privilege is generally not capitalistic because it often seeks privilege rather than freedom from government interference. Again, you need to check your understanding of capitalism which is a system of private ownership of the means of production coupled with market exchanges of goods/services without government interference. The capitalists you bemoan are actually acting as socialists.

Governments have to wrestle with a myriad of problems that they are in no position to wrestle with. They also only have to wrestle with these problems within short election periods. So basically, you end up with never ending growth of government with no thought to preserving capital values in the long term. Without the profit motive, they lack the ability to efficiently allocate resources and at best they can achieve a similar result to the market but in the vast majority of cases government action leads to general impoverishment.

No it is not bunkum, it is the only solution that works in the best interests of long term capital value. Poachers plunder endangered wildlife because the government makes it extremely profitable for them to do so and because it takes away the incentive to nurture these animals in the long term. If it wasn’t illegal to sell Rhino horns for example, private people would be able to farm rhinos, greatly boosting their numbers. The fact you don’t see nature as a commodity is not truthful as you just have a different use value then others might have.

The profit motive is abstract, what is wrong with that? That’s the nature of subjective value, you either deal with that reality or kick and scream and have a tantrum.

Action attempts to exchange a less desirable condition for a more desirable one, and costs are incurred to achieve a goal. The difference between the value of the costs and of the goal is called profit. Under no circumstances does it assume the earth’s resources are infinite, that is a bizarre claim.

I don’t have the perfect formula, I’ve never claimed that. I find most people have a strong socialist bias deep within them so I doubt I convince many people of anything since it is those people that I find myself arguing with. It would be a pretty arrogant to think otherwise, but is that the case for you?

Your issue is you are obsessive about labels, I reckon you need to shed the good vs evil posturing, ultimately there's shades of grey on both sides. It's laughable actually, Malcolm in the Middle was once a good guy but now he's the devil incarnate. Donnie another who's undergone a radical transformation overnight.

As David has astutely pointed out (as have I numerous times), every system that's ever been in existence has had some level of intervention, it's unavoidable unless some prat with alterior motives invents prax & excuses himself from any scrutiny.

Selling the oceans, give me a break. You may as well put the earth for up for tender, all cometh masters of the universe and liberate our planet from the nasty socialists. I'm not sure when it will sink in but you are dealing with complex processes that aren't geographically fixed. Water & aquatic life are not stationary, therefore you can't sell it without impacting on another party. The only solution is to give it all to one party, in which case you have a centralised body which...........(see the absurdity?).

As for the Rhino comments, we're entering a period of mass extinction, largely due to loss of habitat. Industry generally couldn't give a toss about the rights of nature if it interferes with their pursuit of profit. Biodiversity simply doesn't feature in the mystical world of the economist, it's all about the here & now, money in the bank. Poachers poach due to demand, that is a whole lot more complex than something being illegal, the Chinese for example still enjoy consuming tiger willies, the Japanese will never let go of their appetite for whales.

As for you not being original, that's effectively why you are incoherent with you arguments, those websites are just a grab bag of theories cobbled together to destabilise government, usually for very selfish purposes. There's also an undercurrent of white supremacy, one gets the impression that slavery still resonates in the hearts & minds of many Americans.
 
DavidSSS said:
On your definition every capitalist society which has ever existed has really been socialist. There has never been a capitalist economy without some level of government intervention in the economy. Mixed economies are a feature of capitalism. Your favourite period, mentioned some pages ago, was the era of mercantalism. Still, we now live in a modern version where governments no longer open up colonies for capital to exploit, rather they subsidise the research which leads to innovative products to sell (such as subsidising Xerox who invented the mouse and graphical user interface, and many more examples although the internet was invented by government not just subsidised).

Scarcity is assumed by free market economists to be infinite because they assume infinite wants. It's ludicrous stuff. Scarcity can't be wished away if we have a system based on private property, but it certainly can be inflated to absurd levels by a society which promotes capital accumulation for the sake of it.

But, let's get specific: if people cannot sell their labour for a high enough price to support themselves with the basics (food, shelter etc) should they starve while we keep the economy pure and protect private property, or what? Which do you think is more important?

While we're on the topic of efficiency, which you mention above, should we retain the public health systems we have in many countries, or go down the US market solution which is so much less efficient (higher proportion of GDP spent on health yet worse outcomes). I know you will argue that it isn't a free market in the US, but one of the consistent arguments of advocates of free markets is that the closer you can get to a free market the better, and the US Health system is certainly closer to a free market than any public health system, yet less efficient. Also, the whole idea of a "perfectly competitive market" which is the ideal of market economists includes assumptions such as perfect knowledge, infinite buyers and sellers, no barriers to entry. Yet these same people accuse others of being unrealistic.

DS
Certainly, a purely private law society has never existed, I’m not sure why that is relevant? Mixed economies are not features of capitalism, that’s like arguing socialism is a feature of capitalism. The period I referred to was an era where progress to more capitalistic forms of social organisation were prevailing, unlike since WW1 where western society has been becoming more socialist. Crediting development thanks to government intervention ignores what would have happened if the government had not intervened. What was the cost of subsidizing Xerox? Sure the internet began as a government program (drawing a long bow to claim the government invented it, they merely paid for it), but it is only thanks to market participants that the internet became something other than a typical government program: inefficient, overcapitalised, and not directed toward socially useful purposes. It has become something the original developers never intended. What was the cost of creating the internet? Technological value is not the same as economic value. That can only be determined by the free choice of consumers to buy or not to buy. We will never see the technologies that weren't developed because the resources that would have been used to develop them were confiscated by the Defense Department and given to Stanford engineers.

Scarcity isn’t infinite? Please explain that gem to me. I’m unware of anyone promoting capital accumulation for the sake of it, the purpose is to enhance the welfare of every living person. Call me nuts, but increasing one’s living standard is a pretty good idea especially in a world that still has people living in squalor.

If people can not sell their labour for a high enough price to support themselves with the basics then socialism will not help them. It is not a decision between feeding people and protecting private property rights, the only way humanity got out of a hand to mouth existence was by instituting and enshrining private property rights in the first place. You rub your nose at capital accumulation, but it is this very process that allows people to rise up out of poverty.

The US system can in no way shape or form be called a free market solution, and it is certainly not something I’d advocate for. I wouldn’t even argue that it is the most free market health system around, it is probably the most regulated. The Swiss model is perhaps the best example going around.

“Perfectly competitive market”, “perfect knowledge”, infinite buyers and sellers and no barriers to entry are not concepts that are advanced by Austrian economists nor by me. I’m not sure who you are referring to, but it is perhaps more in line with the Keynesian model that you used in your argument earlier. You might want to refrain from making Keynesian arguments if you don’t like what Keynesian economists have to say.
 
bullus_hit said:
Your issue is you are obsessive about labels, I reckon you need to shed the good vs evil posturing, ultimately there's shades of grey on both sides. It's laughable actually, Malcolm in the Middle was once a good guy but now he's the devil incarnate. Donnie another who's undergone a radical transformation overnight.

As David has astutely pointed out (as have I numerous times), every system that's ever been in existence has had some level of intervention, it's unavoidable unless some prat with alterior motives invents prax & excuses himself from any scrutiny.

Selling the oceans, give me a break. You may as well put the earth for up for tender, all cometh masters of the universe and liberate our planet from the nasty socialists. I'm not sure when it will sink in but you are dealing with complex processes that aren't geographically fixed. Water & aquatic life are not stationary, therefore you can't sell it without impacting on another party. The only solution is to give it all to one party, in which case you have a centralised body which...........(see the absurdity?).

As for the Rhino comments, we're entering a period of mass extinction, largely due to loss of habitat. Industry generally couldn't give a toss about the rights of nature if it interferes with their pursuit of profit. Biodiversity simply doesn't feature in the mystical world of the economist, it's all about the here & now, money in the bank. Poachers poach due to demand, that is a whole lot more complex than something being illegal, the Chinese for example still enjoy consuming tiger willies, the Japanese will never let go of their appetite for whales.

As for you not being original, that's effectively why you are incoherent with you arguments, those websites are just a grab bag of theories cobbled together to destabilise government, usually for very selfish purposes. There's also an undercurrent of white supremacy, one gets the impression that slavery still resonates in the hearts & minds of many Americans.
I’m obsessive about labels? I don’t think you have referred to a capitalist without adding “self-serving”, “greedy”, “profiteering” or some other pejorative with it.

I think you better look up “astutely” in the dictionary and you better be careful someone might accuse you of thinking yourself an intellectual genius. Please point out where I have claimed there has ever been in existence a system free from intervention, and also outline why this is a relevant claim.

No land or water asset is stationary all involve complex mixing and influences upon neighboring properties. This doesn’t preclude private ownership. What matters is physical integrity, not value. The only solution is to give it to one centralised body? Good lord, you are advocating for a one world government (water assets effect land owners after all), what an absurd solution that would be.

Private property owners are incentivised to protect the long term capital value of their assets. Large scale ecological destruction is not in line with this incentive. I wouldn't go so far to claim it will always lead to ecological outcomes trumping short termism, but it certainly provides the best incentives for it. You are simply wrong to point the finger at private property ownership leading to large scale ecological damage. Look no further than the Soviet Union and Communist China to see what ecological damage from government ownership looks like. Poachers poach due to demand, yes but when supply is low because the government makes it illegal to sell rhino horns, then the price becomes irresistible to poachers. If the government made it legal, private persons could farm rhinos like I said, and you wouldn’t have an endangered species anymore. Same for tigers and whales. Why would a poacher risk injury or imprisonment for a lousy pay day?

Not being original has no relationship with being coherent. Are you claiming to be an original thinker? That is hilarious :cutelaugh
 
Gia, if you had actually studied economics you would understand that perfectly competitive markets are advanced by classical or neo-classical economists, not Keynesians.

Now let's see if you can answer my question without deflecting: if a person cannot sell their labour for a price which supports the basics of life should we let them starve or should we violate your precious private property by imposing a small tax to support this person so they don't starve? No weaseling out, everything else is kept static like those nice flights of fancy sorry, economic theories, love to do.

DS
 
DavidSSS said:
Gia, if you had actually studied economics you would understand that perfectly competitive markets are advanced by classical or neo-classical economists, not Keynesians.

Now let's see if you can answer my question without deflecting: if a person cannot sell their labour for a price which supports the basics of life should we let them starve or should we violate your precious private property by imposing a small tax to support this person so they don't starve? No weaseling out, everything else is kept static like those nice flights of fancy sorry, economic theories, love to do.

DS
Sure fair enough, but don’t shoot down neoclassical arguments then and think you’re shooting down mine.

I have answered your question, I wasn’t deflecting. You wrongly assume that people would starve without benevolent government redistribution programs. No doubt they’d be sufficient people that would voluntarily help these people. Would you not be one such person? It would be wrong to assume that wages wouldn’t be sufficient to cover basic living expenses for a significant number of people.

Perhaps you can show me the courtesy to respond to the questions I asked you?
 
Giardiasis said:
I’m obsessive about labels? I don’t think you have referred to a capitalist without adding “self-serving”, “greedy”, “profiteering” or some other pejorative with it.

I think you better look up “astutely” in the dictionary and you better be careful someone might accuse you of thinking yourself an intellectual genius. Please point out where I have claimed there has ever been in existence a system free from intervention, and also outline why this is a relevant claim.

No land or water asset is stationary all involve complex mixing and influences upon neighboring properties. This doesn’t preclude private ownership. What matters is physical integrity, not value. The only solution is to give it to one centralised body? Good lord, you are advocating for a one world government (water assets effect land owners after all), what an absurd solution that would be.

Private property owners are incentivised to protect the long term capital value of their assets. Large scale ecological destruction is not in line with this incentive. I wouldn't go so far to claim it will always lead to ecological outcomes trumping short termism, but it certainly provides the best incentives for it. You are simply wrong to point the finger at private property ownership leading to large scale ecological damage. Look no further than the Soviet Union and Communist China to see what ecological damage from government ownership looks like. Poachers poach due to demand, yes but when supply is low because the government makes it illegal to sell rhino horns, then the price becomes irresistible to poachers. If the government made it legal, private persons could farm rhinos like I said, and you wouldn’t have an endangered species anymore. Same for tigers and whales. Why would a poacher risk injury or imprisonment for a lousy pay day?

Not being original has no relationship with being coherent. Are you claiming to be an original thinker? That is hilarious :cutelaugh

First thing you need to realise is that you are not preaching economics but political ideology, economics generally doesn't have fixed outcomes - in your case it's that markets are superior in every situation & market failure is non-existent. This is a furphy and has been illustrated adnauseum but still you clutch at straws in your attempts to justify the junk that is served up on your favoured website. You would have a whole lot more credibility if you advocated minimal intervention or at least acknowledged areas that don't necessarily fit the profit model. For the record I'm neither a socialist nor a capitalist, I could cite examples of extreme frustration at both ends of the spectrum, this is where your McCarthyistic tendencies become nothing more than a red herring, a ploy to distract from the many issues in which you simply cannot explain.

Taking selling the oceans as a prime example, you still haven't explained how this could be practically implemented. For starters there's no Homesteading available here, do we then have a race to the bottom or perhaps a game of battleships. Who gets the proceeds of these sales? I'm guessing it will be the libertarians who have conveniently designed the system to suit their own agenda. But in all reality it's a farcical idea which is impractical, impossible to enforce & naively ignores cultural differences. Sometimes you might just want to reflect on the earth as a living, breathing organ which will suffer once you start carving up it's complex systems. This might sound a bit airy fairy for your liking but the notion that you can hand over control of the food chain to individuals is playing god to some extent. The presumption that all people act in the best interests of nature is also naive in the extreme.

As for human conditions such as greed, unfortunately it's a grand seduction. The fact that income distribution is becoming more skewed backs this up. You say this is good but good for what exactly? History tells you it's a precursor for conflict & wars produce few winners. The cult of praxeology also offers nothing to allay these fears, people haven't changed since the dawn of time & are unlikely to do so. Praxeology is just another distraction from the reality of market failure, how convenient that liberatarians can discard numbers when it suits...............just coz.

But what has baffled me most about your stout defence of libertarians is the insidious characters behind the scenes who advocate selling human organs, oppressing blacks & hispanics, legalising pedophilia, giving guns to infants, legalising rape within the confines of the home & euthanising people with mental illness. Like it or not but these are your bedfellows, unfortunately this is the baggage that comes with being a political ideologue.
 
bullus_hit said:
First thing you need to realise is that you are not preaching economics but political ideology, economics generally doesn't have fixed outcomes - in your case it's that markets are superior in every situation & market failure is non-existent. This is a furphy and has been illustrated adnauseum but still you clutch at straws in your attempts to justify the junk that is served up on your favoured website. You would have a whole lot more credibility if you advocated minimal intervention or at least acknowledged areas that don't necessarily fit the profit model. For the record I'm neither a socialist nor a capitalist, I could cite examples of extreme frustration at both ends of the spectrum, this is where your McCarthyistic tendencies become nothing more than a red herring, a ploy to distract from the many issues in which you simply cannot explain.

Taking selling the oceans as a prime example, you still haven't explained how this could be practically implemented. For starters there's no Homesteading available here, do we then have a race to the bottom or perhaps a game of battleships. Who gets the proceeds of these sales? I'm guessing it will be the libertarians who have conveniently designed the system to suit their own agenda. But in all reality it's a farcical idea which is impractical, impossible to enforce & naively ignores cultural differences. Sometimes you might just want to reflect on the earth as a living, breathing organ which will suffer once you start carving up it's complex systems. This might sound a bit airy fairy for your liking but the notion that you can hand over control of the food chain to individuals is playing god to some extent. The presumption that all people act in the best interests of nature is also naive in the extreme.

As for human conditions such as greed, unfortunately it's a grand seduction. The fact that income distribution is becoming more skewed backs this up. You say this is good but good for what exactly? History tells you it's a precursor for conflict & wars produce few winners. The cult of praxeology also offers nothing to allay these fears, people haven't changed since the dawn of time & are unlikely to do so. Praxeology is just another distraction from the reality of market failure, how convenient that liberatarians can discard numbers when it suits...............just coz.

But what has baffled me most about your stout defence of libertarians is the insidious characters behind the scenes who advocate selling human organs, oppressing blacks & hispanics, legalising pedophilia, giving guns to infants, legalising rape within the confines of the home & euthanising people with mental illness. Like it or not but these are your bedfellows, unfortunately this is the baggage that comes with being a political ideologue.
What I’m saying is that any alternative to the market would not produce a superior outcome as the market outcome is the result of peaceful transactions between participants. It is a moral claim. Your alternative involves coercion to stop people peacefully transacting with one another. I don’t advocate for minimal intervention because I have a consistent argument and am not convinced that violence can be justified in any case except self defence. You pretty up your solutions but like it or not your position is one of physical violent coercion and all the baggage that comes with being a statist. Most of what you say is just a word salad of incoherent nonsense and ironic insults.

Private ownership of the ocean isn’t that difficult a concept to get your head around. It doesn’t practically differ from land ownership, there is certainly homesteading to establish ownership rights, and there are resources to control. States current lay ownership of the oceans, it would necessarily involve these states selling ownership rights to water assets. You can rabble on about impediments to private ownership in this case but the only impediment is government’s not opening up these ownership rights. The earth suffers from government ownership of land far more so than private ownership, you just casually ignore the example of the Soviet Union and China because that wouldn’t compute for you. Handing over control of the food chain to individuals? Eh, what other way is there? Even governments are comprised of individuals, and you just can’t go past the Soviet Union again as a great example here, where the state-owned 97 percent of the land yet only accounted for 75 percent of the crops. On the 3 percent of the land privately owned, 25 percent of the crops were grown. You neither have the theory right or the empirical evidence. Talk about naïve in the extreme.

It’s like you think that greed somehow magically disappears when the government takes control. Are politicians and bureaucrats some sort of super humans that don’t fall prey to greed? Private owners are at the mercy of the market, a far better correcting mechanism for bad decision making than 3-4 year election cycles. I never said that income disparity was good, just that it isn’t the bad it is assumed by so many people. I’m not sure how to respond to your other claims here, it is just more incoherent babbling.

I’m unaware of any libertarians that are calling for the oppression of blacks and Hispanics, legalizing pedophilia, giving guns to infants, legalising rape within the confines of the home and euthanising people with mental illness (which I take you to mean murder not euthanisation). These are simply false claims from someone that has to resort to such nonsense because you can’t stick to logical arguments. You’ve no doubt got the wrong idea about selling organs so I won’t press you further on that one.

I’m not interested in discussing this with you anymore, you are simply boring, your insults and false accusations are nauseating and you are a waste of my time.
 
So for the purpose of enlightening the other contributors to this thread here's a brief rundown of the key players running the Mises Institute.

I'll start with the namesake given he has absolutely zero to do with the institute itself but has been handpicked as a father figure largely due to dreaming up praxeology as an effective way to avoid the typical scrutiny that accompanies any economic theory. For the purpose of the anarcho-capitalists at Mises his discarding of any empirical data was the perfect mechanism to cram every scrap of wing-nuttery into a neat little package.

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Interesting to note that the von Mises coat of arms has been used as the emblem of the institute, clearly used to give it a veneer of legitimacy but feudalism is hardly compatible with free markets. My personal feelings regarding von Mises is that he would be seething at how his name has been rubbished by the Southern U.S. libertarian movement but given he also promoted his own brand of supremacy it's probably just desserts.

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift."

-von Mises on the merits of fascism as a counterweight to communism

Women's rights were also not high on the agenda, likewise his inherent belief that races were created unequal.

"Nor is it any longer of greater significance that the political rights of women are restricted, that women are denied the vote and the right to hold office... The right to occupy public office is denied women less by the legal limitations of their rights than by the peculiarities of their sexual character."

"Nothing, however, is as ill founded as the assertion of the alleged equality of all members of the human race."

And capital punishment another bedrock piece of ideology, in this case it was the guillotine as a legitimate instrument in shaping a harmonious society.

"The liberal champions of equality under the law were fully aware of the fact that men are born unequal and that it is precisely their inequality that generates social cooperation and civilization. Equality under the law was in their opinion not designed to correct the inexorable facts of the universe and to make natural inequality disappear."


So economic theory aside, von Mises had all the key ingredients which fit neatly into the neo-confederate vision of the world, white supremacy, misogony & xenophobia, the triple pillars used so effectively in a post-slavery America. An environment which has seen (mostly) white males knocked off the perch of societal domination. The relentless pursuit of private ownership another symptom of slave traders losing their rights over blacks & other minority groups. It's notable that Mises Institute still promotes the notion that Lincoln was a bleeding heart liberal who betrayed his own people & allowed the trojan horse of government to impede on the free market. This mentality of legitimising the slave trade has morphed into other areas of human exploitation, this unfortunate byproduct is one reason I suspect von Mises would be turning in his grave.

Of the various mouthpieces for Mises it's Walter Block who comes across as the most twisted, having made a name for himself with the book Defending the Indefensible, Block has become particularly vocal in his views about selling children & legitimising rape on private property.

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"Suppose that there is a starvation situation and the parent of the 4 year old child (who is not an adult) does not have enough money to keep him alive, a wealthy NAMBLA man offers this family enough money to keep him and his family alive. If he will consent to his having sex with the child, would it be criminal child abuse to accept this offer?"

"There can be no such thing as 'involuntary intercourse' for the female slave whose owner is a pimp. In her slave contract she has already agreed to alienate her body for such sexual services. Yes, it is indeed, and only rape if the owner does not consent to this sexual intercourse".

"Sexual harassment is not a coercive action because it is part of the package deal : the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job and especially when she agrees to keep the job. If she continues to patronise or work at a place where she is molested, it can only be voluntary".

Block also despises charity using his own sick brand of Darwinism - "charity disrupts the survival of the fittest, thus obstructing the evolution of the human species."

Now it's particularly noteworthy that the Mises Institute strips the State of any right to invest any tax dollars in education, orphanages, day care, health care or social security. So if someone is handicapped, gravely sick, discriminated against, was born in a broken family, or for any other reason is unable to provide for themselves, Block's solution is to simply let them die.

It would be nice to believe that Walter Block is just an attention seeking renegade but given the fact that other senior figures at Mises have not only plugged his book, they have also gone so far as to give him the title of 'Senior Fellow'. From this one can only conclude the Institute fully endorces his vile commentary.

The other key barometer for Mises values has been their longstanding relationship with the KKK & David Duke in particular. Former chairman Murray Rothbard praised Duke during his failed presidential run and current chairman Lew Rockwell has frequently promoted anti-black sentiment in his newsletters.

"Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

"We are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational."

"Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks."


So this should all just be a bit of fun, and exercise in free speech, right? Perhaps not when a guy like Nick Larson decides congress needs an 'anti-establishment' anarcho-libertarian. His platform includes legalizing child pornography as well as incestuous marriage; allowing men to have multiple wives and physically discipline them; repealing the 19th Amendment; and abolishing state funding for girls and women to attend high school and college.

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It should be no surprise that his mandate strikes an uncanny resemblance to views promoted by Mises & Block in particular. Along with being locked up for threatening to kill the president, Larson also admits to raping his wife prior to her suicide.

And last but not least is the libertarian view on gun rights, I surely don't need to delve into this in any great detail but Sacha Baron Cohen has nailed it in Who is America, the Kinderguardians a surreal insight into the minds of gun fanatics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLjAj8620Nk
 
Gia, you are full of it.

The oceans are international waters, they are precisely the place on this planet that are not covered by any state jurisdiction. You are just making it up. As for ownership of the ocean, where does the right to claim ownership of the commons come from? Who gives anyone permission to claim ownership over the oceans? You can go ahead and mix your labour with part of the ocean but who said you could do this and how do you enforce these flimsy claims of ownership without coercion? Claiming property, which denies others' rights to that property, is a coercive act as it restricts the freedom of others.

You talk a lot about coercion, but you want to impose markets on everyone whether we like it or not. What do you do if a community decide they don't want to run their whole lives using market relations, they don't want to transact, they want to cooperate. They value mutual aid and act for the community. Do you allow this community to decide their own relations, or what?

As for the claim that markets lead to a "superior" outcome, on what measure? Research (yeah, sorry to introduce empirical evidence again, just can't help referring to reality) has found that we might be wealthier today than back 30 or 40 years ago, but we're not happier. If the economy thrives but most people are more pressured, finding life harder etc what is the point? Is it really a superior outcome when only a small proportion of the population benefit from increases in wealth?

DS