Talking Politics

[IanG]

Thanks Bullus. Those people and the institute are certainly not who i would want to align with.

Seconded, that is enlightening.

 

[Giardiasis]

BH, if anyone was enlightened by your ad hominem hit job, then that just reflects poorly on them. Boy o boy talk about getting your facts straight. You could have saved some time and just linked to rationalwiki or facebook.

I'll start with the namesake given he has absolutely zero to do with the institute itself but has been handpicked as a father figure largely due to dreaming up praxeology as an effective way to avoid the typical scrutiny that accompanies any economic theory. For the purpose of the anarcho-capitalists at Mises his discarding of any empirical data was the perfect mechanism to cram every scrap of wing-nuttery into a neat little package.

There is it, praxeology completed dismantled in only two sentences! It was dreamed up and avoids typical scrutiny! Anything about the epistemological underpinning of praxeology? Anything about the arguments made against empiricism in economics? Nah, a two-sentence non sequitur is all that is needed for enlightenment.

Interesting to note that the von Mises coat of arms has been used as the emblem of the institute, clearly used to give it a veneer of legitimacy but feudalism is hardly compatible with free markets.

Another non sequitur.

My personal feelings regarding von Mises is that he would be seething at how his name has been rubbished by the Southern U.S. libertarian movement but given he also promoted his own brand of supremacy it's probably just desserts.

You have such a strong idea of what von Mises would be thinking for someone that has never read a book by von Mises and has got all his knowledge of him from rationalwiki and reddit. I don’t understand why you have involved Zumbo's just desserts?

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift."

-von Mises on the merits of fascism as a counterweight to communism

I’ll just have to assume what point you’re making here because you haven’t provided one. Mises was a supporter of fascism? You mean the guy that had to flee Austria in 1940 because he was blacklisted by the Germans for his opinions. Perhaps instead of spending time on rationalwiki, you actually read the entire section of where that quote comes from:
https://mises.org/library/liberalism-classical-tradition/html/p/29
Of note that while the New York Times and large sections of the mainstream media were praising Mussolini and co, von Mises was a strong critic of fascism.

Women's rights were also not high on the agenda, likewise his inherent belief that races were created unequal.

"Nor is it any longer of greater significance that the political rights of women are restricted, that women are denied the vote and the right to hold office... The right to occupy public office is denied women less by the legal limitations of their rights than by the peculiarities of their sexual character."

What he is saying here is that the reason why there aren’t many women in politics is not because they face legal discrimination, but because they aren’t interested in it. Hardly a controversial opinion.

"Nothing, however, is as ill founded as the assertion of the alleged equality of all members of the human race."

Again, this is not controversial. People aren’t equal in talents, looks, abilities, luck, intelligence, etc. Only a rabid frothing at the mouth SJW would disagree with that. To complete the quote:
“Men are altogether unequal. Even between brothers there exist the most marked differences in physical and mental attributes. Nature never repeats itself in its creations; it produces nothing by the dozen, nor are its products standardized. Each man who leaves her workshop bears the imprint of the individual, the unique, the never-to-recur. Men are not equal, and the demand for equality under the law can by no means be grounded in the contention that equal treatment is due to equals.”

And capital punishment another bedrock piece of ideology, in this case it was the guillotine as a legitimate instrument in shaping a harmonious society.

"The liberal champions of equality under the law were fully aware of the fact that men are born unequal and that it is precisely their inequality that generates social cooperation and civilization. Equality under the law was in their opinion not designed to correct the inexorable facts of the universe and to make natural inequality disappear."

How you figure that this quote is a justification for capital punishment is startling. Non sequitur of the century.

So economic theory aside, von Mises had all the key ingredients which fit neatly into the neo-confederate vision of the world, white supremacy, misogony & xenophobia, the triple pillars used so effectively in a post-slavery America. An environment which has seen (mostly) white males knocked off the perch of societal domination. The relentless pursuit of private ownership another symptom of slave traders losing their rights over blacks & other minority groups.

I take that back, here’s an even worse non sequitur. You can in no way shape or form demonstrated your claims here, they are complete garbage. The last sentence is funny, I thought you wanted to criticise private property, but you just admitted that defending private property rights ended slavery!

It's notable that Mises Institute still promotes the notion that Lincoln was a bleeding heart liberal who betrayed his own people & allowed the trojan horse of government to impede on the free market. This mentality of legitimising the slave trade has morphed into other areas of human exploitation, this unfortunate byproduct is one reason I suspect von Mises would be turning in his grave.

The criticism of Lincoln was not an attempt to legitimise the slave trade, yet another non sequitur to avoid actually addressing the arguments made. Intellectually dishonest and shameful from you. Anyone arguing for private property rights would be an uncompromising critic of slavery as a gross violation of private property rights. Have you read the books written by Thomas DiLorenzo? I have, they are sitting on my book shelf. If anyone wants to be enlightened on Lincoln I suggest they read them and make their minds up for themselves.

Of the various mouthpieces for Mises it's Walter Block who comes across as the most twisted, having made a name for himself with the book Defending the Indefensible, Block has become particularly vocal in his views about selling children & legitimising rape on private property.

"Suppose that there is a starvation situation and the parent of the 4 year old child (who is not an adult) does not have enough money to keep him alive, a wealthy NAMBLA man offers this family enough money to keep him and his family alive. If he will consent to his having sex with the child, would it be criminal child abuse to accept this offer?"

"There can be no such thing as 'involuntary intercourse' for the female slave whose owner is a pimp. In her slave contract she has already agreed to alienate her body for such sexual services. Yes, it is indeed, and only rape if the owner does not consent to this sexual intercourse".

"Sexual harassment is not a coercive action because it is part of the package deal : the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job and especially when she agrees to keep the job. If she continues to patronise or work at a place where she is molested, it can only be voluntary".

I won’t defend the quotes here because I haven’t read the full context of what Block’s points are. He is touching very controversial topics so no doubt it would hit people hard, especially those that are quick to take his opinions the wrong way, such as rationalwiki or “American’s against the Libertarian Party”. I know that many Libertarians don’t agree with some of his conclusions.

Block also despises charity using his own sick brand of Darwinism - "charity disrupts the survival of the fittest, thus obstructing the evolution of the human species."

You have just quoted rationalwiki here, this isn’t a quote from Block or anyone from the Mises Institute. Enlightening stuff.

Now it's particularly noteworthy that the Mises Institute strips the State of any right to invest any tax dollars in education, orphanages, day care, health care or social security. So if someone is handicapped, gravely sick, discriminated against, was born in a broken family, or for any other reason is unable to provide for themselves, Block's solution is to simply let them die.

Ah yes the classic oh you don’t support public education or must be against education fallacy. So many suckers fall for this nonsense line of argument. The solution isn’t to let people die, it is to take responsibility if you don’t want people to die then do something about it yourself. Don’t force others to do that and then think yourself some moral champion.

It would be nice to believe that Walter Block is just an attention seeking renegade but given the fact that other senior figures at Mises have not only plugged his book, they have also gone so far as to give him the title of 'Senior Fellow'. From this one can only conclude the Institute fully endorces his vile commentary.

There is vast debate that goes on in libertarian circles about the issues Block has discussed including the Mises Institute. It is important for uncomfortable ideas to be discussed which is what even people that disagree with him would still give him credit for. He has a much further range of content also which is why he is a senior fellow.

The other key barometer for Mises values has been their longstanding relationship with the KKK & David Duke in particular. Former chairman Murray Rothbard praised Duke during his failed presidential run

Long standing relationship? What proof have you given for that? Oh nothing, that’s right. Murray Rothbard referred to Duke in one article and all of a sudden, the Mises Institute has a longstanding relationship with David Duke? Enlightening take down.

current chairman Lew Rockwell has frequently promoted anti-black sentiment in his newsletters.

"Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

"We are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational."

"Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks."

What proof do you have that he wrote these? He denies he ever did. We’ll just take it your word as gospel then to continue the hatchet job.

So this should all just be a bit of fun, and exercise in free speech, right? Perhaps not when a guy like Nick Larson decides congress needs an 'anti-establishment' anarcho-libertarian. His platform includes legalizing child pornography as well as incestuous marriage; allowing men to have multiple wives and physically discipline them; repealing the 19th Amendment; and abolishing state funding for girls and women to attend high school and college.

It should be no surprise that his mandate strikes an uncanny resemblance to views promoted by Mises & Block in particular. Along with being locked up for threatening to kill the president, Larson also admits to raping his wife prior to her suicide.

This is just downright bizarre. Not sure what website that got you onto this guy, but he has zero affiliation with the Mises Institute. You can hardly call him libertarian if he supports child pornography, physically discipling wives, murder and rape. You really are a piece of work BH.

And last but not least is the libertarian view on gun rights, I surely don't need to delve into this in any great detail but Sacha Baron Cohen has nailed it in Who is America, the Kinderguardians a surreal insight into the minds of gun fanatics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLjAj8620Nk

Another non sequitur to finish your smear job. Mission accomplished comrade, you have already enlightened at least two gullible disciples.

 

[bullus_hit]

Another typical bait & switch combined with a scatter gun approach. For those seeking further information on Rothbard & von Mises here's a succinct summary from the Business Insider.

https://www.businessinsider.com/exposing-the-racist-history-of-libertarianism-and-murray-rothbard-2011-10

As for Di Lorenzo, he's a former tobacco lobbyist who wrote Cancer Scam in order to stymie government funded research into smoking related cancer, his other claim to fame is his relentless attacks on Lincoln. This has been a common theme amongst libertarians who desperately seek ways to discredit the merits of the civil war & the end of slavery. From these historical markers it's clear where the anti-government mantra emanated, the confederate states lost their rights to slave ownership and have ever since railed against 'big government'.

As for contemporary racism in America, where to start? From Trump's slurs about Mexicans being murderous rapists to white supremacists mowing down protesters, it's clear that racism is alive and well in the good ol' US of A. I was personally disturbed to see David Duke rear his ugly head again in Charlottesville, that says to me he's back in the political frame & that white supremacy is quietly bubbling away. As to which way this goes will largely depend on political opportunism, unfortunately there's still a ton of votes for those who choose to create division.

 

[tigersnake]

Good work Bullus_hit. I saddled up for a crack at G-man years ago over a few different issues, climate change being the main one. Frustratingly pointless. Gets done like a dinner but refuses to accept it or doesn't understand whats happening and just goes 'non-sequiter, ad hominem, logical fallacy' in response to every point. Its a sick joke.

 

[DavidSSS]

I truly love the bit about arguments against empiricism in economics.

Yep, that reality thing has a nasty way of upsetting nice little pet economic theories hypotheses (to be a theory you need evidence).

We know, from reality, that trickle down economics is rubbish. If you read Piketty you'll also see how redistribution really did work (and he uses, horror of horrors, actual data - oh no, a priori idiocy has much more credibility, surely), inequality was reduced, and we also had a healthy economy for a couple of decades.

DS

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I can feel the frustration burning off the page. Gia really does get people going, me included, especially on Climate Change. I think the main problem is that he is happy to defend his Austrian School to the hilt even though he is arguing from a purely theoretical standpoint while his interlocutors are looking at real world situations and trying to figure a way to get to somewhere better from where we now stand. (Of course this leads us down yet another rabbit hole of empiricism vs an invention of Mises to avoid empiricism). Gia doesn't want to "burn it all down" but the rest of us can't see how his ideas could be implemented without first dismantling all of the government systems (and maybe all of government?) we all rely on. But if that isn't what he is proposing, we can't figure out what he is proposing and thus what the point of all this aggravation might be?

 

[RoarEmotion]

I can feel the frustration burning off the page. Gia really does get people going, me included, especially on Climate Change. I think the main problem is that he is happy to defend his Austrian School to the hilt even though he is arguing from a purely theoretical standpoint while his interlocutors are looking at real world situations and trying to figure a way to get to somewhere better from where we now stand. (Of course this leads us down yet another rabbit hole of empiricism vs an invention of Mises to avoid empiricism). Gia doesn't want to "burn it all down" but the rest of us can't see how his ideas could be implemented without first dismantling all of the government systems (and maybe all of government?) we all rely on. But if that isn't what he is proposing, we can't figure out what he is proposing and thus what the point of all this aggravation might be?

Well put. I stay out because I don’t have the time but I do love two people passionately arguing their points of view. Needs to be a bit more listening. You’ve captured my mind which starts from where we are and tries to think what would make it better vs a blank canvas. A blank canvas or taking things to extremes as part of a thought process, however, I think is exceptionally helpful to frame thinking on issues.

The biggest challenge I find with the more textbook views is it feels to me it relies on a need for people to make rational and logical decisions however markets do fail especially when the knowledge feedback loop and ‘reasonably’ full market awareness is slow. Also behavioural economics show us all types of non rational behaviours from a purely economic sense exist everwhere. Some people buy a pie at the footy and others pack a lunch....

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Well put. I stay out because I don’t have the time but I do love two people passionately arguing their points of view. Needs to be a bit more listening. You’ve captured my mind which starts from where we are and tries to think what would make it better vs a blank canvas. A blank canvas or taking things to extremes as part of a thought process, however, I think is exceptionally helpful to frame thinking on issues.

The biggest challenge I find with the more textbook views is it feels to me it relies on a need for people to make rational and logical decisions however markets do fail especially when the knowledge feedback loop and ‘reasonably’ full market awareness is slow. Also behavioural economics show us all types of non rational behaviours from a purely economic sense exist everwhere. Some people buy a pie at the footy and others pack a lunch....

Cheers mate. I get sucked in as much as anyone else at times, but I do try to step back every now and then and be charitable to the people I am arguing with.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

One of my problems with most systems is; who is actually making the decisions that have the greatest impact? People at the top of large companies, generally. We have a U.S. President at the moment who personifies the type of person that has been promoted to positions of power for the last 4-5 decades. That may seem a bit extreme but in general the people who move into and up management hierarchies are the sales people. And the "best" sales people tend to have loose morals (in business dealings) and are not usually well read with an interest in economics and culture and environment etc. (Listen to Bob Lutz who moved all the way to General Manager at General Motors for another example.) This is who have become the "leaders". When you build a culture that rewards the people with the least interest in knowledge, whose only drive is profit and you promote them over their more knowledgeable colleagues this is what you get.

 

[22nd Man]

if any team should have prisoners on their team it should be the Beechworth Bushrangers. But no more.

Now you can argue about what types of prisoners should get day release and when during their sentence.

But if this program has been going for years why stop it altogether? And I assume no team is forced to take prisoners if they don't want to.

 

[TigerForce]

Leadership challenge from Buttonhead?? Please no!!

 

[Brodders17]

Leadership challenge from Buttonhead?? Please no!!

at least it would guarantee the Libs lose the next election.

 

[tigerman]

Good to see Tony Abbott sticking to his promise of not being a wrecker.

 

[Tommy H]

LNP are a rabble.

 

[Baloo]

LNP are a rabble.

Can't think of a political party that isn't a rabble

 

[Tommy H]

Can't think of a political party that isn't a rabble

Absolute rubbish. You're not thinking too hard.

 

[bullus_hit]

Can't think of a political party that isn't a rabble

One Nation, hard to be a rabble when there's no-one left to squabble with.

 

[Baloo]

Absolute rubbish. You're not thinking too hard.

Name one. (other than One Nation, the party of One)

 

[Tommy H]

One Nation, hard to be a rabble when there's no-one left to squabble with.

Oh that one where their excuse for a leader went on a cruise in the QLD elections. You and Baloo are amusing.

 

[bullus_hit]

Michael Cohen going down for 20 million bank fraud, draining the swamp indeed.