Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Talking Politics

IanG

Tiger Legend
Sep 27, 2004
18,113
3,350
Melbourne
You read this about Palmer and realisation strikes that we are functionally not a democracy any more:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/22/clive-palmer-says-he-decided-to-polarise-electorate-with-anti-labor-ads-to-ensure-coalition-win
 

tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
30,075
12,482
IanG said:
You read this about Palmer and realisation strikes that we are functionally not a democracy any more:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/22/clive-palmer-says-he-decided-to-polarise-electorate-with-anti-labor-ads-to-ensure-coalition-win
Yep, groups everywhere trying to influence voting. GetUp, unions. The CPSU (of which im a member) rang me 4 times to ensure i voted Labor (or at least put Libs last)
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,071
21,688
tigertim said:
Yep, groups everywhere trying to influence voting. GetUp, unions. The CPSU (of which im a member) rang me 4 times to ensure i voted Labor (or at least put Libs last)

Yep works both ways from both sides of the spectrum. There were various other groups clearly supporting labor through TV advertising that weren't labor. Mostly related to Unions.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,071
21,688
Brodders17 said:
cant read that, but as far as i am aware the issues the greens face are similar to what the Libs and Labor grapple with. large membership bases whodont agree on everything, and a few people in power who arent cleanskins.
these are different issues to parties who lose most, or all, of their elected members once they enter parliament. at the last election one nation won 4 senate seats. Hanson was the only one remaining by this election.

Agree Brodders that the Greens are in the same position as Libs and Labour. All 3 of the parties have extreme elements just on different scales. The Greens voters will not allow them to move towards a more centre left policy agenda that may garner them more support through the electorate.

I struggle with extremes of all nature whether they be right or left. Neither benefit over the longer term and history proves that with numerous examples.

Terms like social equality can be so wide ranging, whilst some regard that as equality in terms of services (I agree with that), others view it as close to communist states where everyone is considered equal from a salary perspective (think the Soviet Union). Whilst these work for a shorter period of time, it doesn't take too long to breakdown when innovation falls (and it will, why would anyone take a risk with time / money if they don't gain anything from it).

Even in Australia I've seen posts on social media from people that I thought were smart around things such as a 99-100% tax rate once you get above a certain salary. The thinking is more tax revenue from these guys means more trickles down to everyone else, but when these guys at the top end see nothing in it for them, innovation and growth falls and you actually end up with less money to go around as the "piece of the pie" declines with the size of the pie.

The best solution for all involved is centre politics (swings to both sides). I'm generally a centre right thinker, but things that swing centre left I fully support. For example, I don't support the removal of penalty rates for weekend work, I do support a properly thought out energy / environment policy (no Shortens was not thought out and was an environment policy by name only), I also support universal healthcare and schooling, however I also support a fiscally responsible government.

Personal view is labor swung away from centre politics as they got arrogant that they could just show up and win (similar to the Crows in 2017 ;) ).
 

IanG

Tiger Legend
Sep 27, 2004
18,113
3,350
Melbourne
mrposhman said:
Yep works both ways from both sides of the spectrum. There were various other groups clearly supporting labor through TV advertising that weren't labor. Mostly related to Unions.

Its a bit different if you create a political party to essentially run interference for the LNP. If he just spent the money advertising for the LNP that would be more akin to what other lobby groups do. Its essentially gaming the system rather than just trying to influence the result.
 
E

easy_tiger

Guest
mrposhman said:
Yep works both ways from both sides of the spectrum. There were various other groups clearly supporting labor through TV advertising that weren't labor. Mostly related to Unions.

It doesn't really work both ways.

It pretty much works about $250m one way, and probably $15m the other way.

which is a approx nett $235 one way, from the blue side of the spectrum, so
 

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,798
11,970
IanG said:
You read this about Palmer and realisation strikes that we are functionally not a democracy any more:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/22/clive-palmer-says-he-decided-to-polarise-electorate-with-anti-labor-ads-to-ensure-coalition-win

i havent read the article, but i wouldnt believe anything Palmer says. i reckon he ran to get seats. his ego cant admit that and now he is making *smile* up.
there are many parties i strongly disagree with, but can understand why people vote for them.
I cannot understand why anyone, except his employees would vote for Palmer.
 

Coburgtiger

Tiger Legend
May 7, 2012
5,041
7,253
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Young enough to be running around a cricket field. I'll be here for a while yet.

The Sahara is greening; I call *smile* on your "best estimates". As a result of climate change, anyway.

The big issue is overpopulation. Now, what are we going to do about that?

Ah, the old: climate change won't affect anything, but also, an entire deserts ecosystem is completely changing, but also, its good argument.

Logical and shows no bias.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,071
21,688
Brodders17 said:
i havent read the article, but i wouldnt believe anything Palmer says. i reckon he ran to get seats. his ego cant admit that and now he is making sh!t up.
there are many parties i strongly disagree with, but can understand why people vote for them.
I cannot understand why anyone, except his employees would vote for Palmer.

Agree Brodders. No way that that egotistical maniac wasn't in this for seats. He wanted his senate seat, he didn't get it but he won't admit defeat, just changes the goal posts for whats a win.
 

Willo

Tiger Legend
Oct 13, 2007
18,566
6,544
Aldinga Beach
Interesting read for some, sure to be dismissed by others.
Mark Latham is an interesting study, from firebrand Labour leader to state leader and senator for One Nation
I wonder what caused his beliefs to change, if they ever did

LABOR NEVER LEARNS

I wrote this about Bill Shorten and the ALP two years ago, in May 2017. It was all so clear, but Shorten and his team ignored commonsense and have now paid a heavy political price (as they should have).

Please have a read:

I have a theory about Labor Governments. From the high-water mark of the Hawke years, they are getting progressively worse.

In the 1980s, Bob Hawke set the gold standard for Labor, combining economic openness and fiscal restraint with an effective social safety net. It’s been downhill since then.

The Keating Government lost touch with the electorate by focusing on low-priority symbolic issues, such as the Republic, affirmative action and arts funding.

This was a nascent experiment with identity politics, which ended badly for Labor at the 1996 election.

The Rudd Government (2007-10) did some good things in its first 12 months but then fell into chaos with unsustainable deficit budgeting and policy gridlock on climate change.

Julia Gillard’s administration was even worse, a rolling pantomime of scandals, broken promises and a leader clearly out of her depth.

With opinion polls pointing to the likelihood of a Labor victory at the next election, we have to ask: what about a Shorten government?

After the failings of the Rudd/Gillard era, Bill Shorten needed to take his party in a different direction: to rediscover the benefits of economic productivity, balanced budgets and a unified Australian society.

There’s much work to be done in bringing Australians together: in making us one people, not a series of warring racial, gender and sexuality tribes.

The new Opposition Leader needed to give fresh life to the Hawke agenda, to return Labor’s core values to the time of its most successful period in government.

This was what I told Shorten when we met over lunch in Liverpool in 2014. I told him to stand up to the Left faction and assert his leadership around what was right for the party and the nation.

Either he’s a poor listener or I was a lousy advocate, because he followed none of my advice.

He took the line of least resistance, caving into the Left on economic issues and the primitivism of identity politics.

Little Billy is a lost cause. By every indicator, he will lead a Labor government worse than Rudd and Gillard – as impossibly dreadful as that might seem.

On economic policy, Shorten has given up on growing private sector incomes through productivity reform.

He has drunk the Kool-Aid of “Inclusive Prosperity” – an economic theory brought to Australia by Wayne Swan.

When I first heard of Inclusive Prosperity, I thought it must have been a strategy for growing the economy and then using social policy to give people greater opportunities in life.

It actually works the other way.

Shorten and Swan believe that increasing social spending can make Australia more prosperous – tabbing up extra debt and deficit as a viable financial strategy.

At the launch of Labor’s economic policy in Brisbane last year, Shorten said, “Fairness is not a dividend of prosperity, it is a foundation for sustainable growth”.

What planet is this bloke from?

The only sustainable pathway to economic growth is through people working smarter and harder, making Australia more efficient and internationally competitive.

We need lower taxes, greater financial incentive and higher productivity – not another madcap era of Swan-inspired spending, notched up on the national credit card.

Labor has redefined bulk-billing rates as an arm of economic policy.

So next time you take your kids to the doctor, according to Shortenomics, it’s not about curing a virus or rash, it’s a new form of wealth creation.

This is a zany and dangerous doctrine, from a party unfit for government.

Four years ago, Labor’s Shadow Treasurer Chris Bowen wrote a book, Hearts and Minds, in which he declared his support for open economic markets.

But he no longer talks that way.

His sole focus is on the political trickery of housing affordability.

The best way of lowering housing costs is by lowering housing demand – cutting Australia’s massive immigration program.

But Bowen can’t do that as large Middle Eastern ethnic groups have taken control of Labor politics in his Western Sydney electorate.

Bowen’s policy is to abolish negative gearing concessions for existing housing stock.

This will produce a flood of negative gearing money into newly constructed rental housing, adding to urban sprawl and congestion.

As a captive of migrant interests, Bowen is set to deliver the worst of both worlds: a continuation of Big Australia immigration numbers driving up housing prices; plus more unsustainable growth on Sydney’s sprawling urban fringe.

At every turn, Labor’s economic policy is a disaster.

It’s not even based on the right premise.

Shorten, Bowen and the other economic shadow ministers, Jim Chalmers and Andrew Leigh, are always banging on about rising inequality.

Yet the Hawke/Keating policy legacy has delivered a fairer society.

Australia’s most reliable labour market survey, HILDA at the Melbourne Institute, has concluded that, for the period 2001-14, every measure of inequality actually improved, edging the nation closer to income equality.

Labor is in la-la land.

Shorten and his frontbench have allowed Left-wing nonsense to wreck the credentials of what was once Australia’s most credible party of economic reform.

In the culture wars, their thinking is no less damaging.

Shorten plans to import the Victorian Daniel Andrews Leftist model to Canberra.

Instead of treating people on merit, the ALP now judges social issues by skin colour, gender, sexuality and religion.

It has embraced the Human Rights Commission, safe spaces, Safe Schools and Left-wing Islamists like Yassmin Abdel-Magied.

Its policies are based on separatism, on using the power of the state to shield Aborigines, Muslims, women and gays from “privileged white men”.

This is destroying the original intent of multiculturalism and Indigenous reconciliation.

Instead of uniting Australians around common values and common cause, identity politics is pushing people apart.

It’s breeding fragility, victimology and a feeling that we’re only safe in the same room together if we look alike.

Rest in peace, my old party.

Labor is no longer a viable force for economic growth and social justice in Australia.
 

jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,108
Melbourne
Brodders17 said:
i havent read the article, but i wouldnt believe anything Palmer says. i reckon he ran to get seats. his ego cant admit that and now he is making sh!t up.
there are many parties i strongly disagree with, but can understand why people vote for them.
I cannot understand why anyone, except his employees would vote for Palmer.


Agree with that. Failed dismally and then retro changed his story/objective
 
E

easy_tiger

Guest
jb03 said:
Agree with that. Failed dismally and then retro changed his story/objective

He's a big fat psycho conman

dunno about dismal failure though. It'll turn ou the best $80m he ever spent.

once the LNP approves his train line and his mine in the Galileo Basin,

He'll turn it into $2b

then when all the coals burnt, He'll start a *smile* eco-enviro coral remediation firm,

and win a huge govt. contract to suck all the coal off the reef.

and make another $1b


willo said:
Interesting read for some, sure to be dismissed by others.
Mark Latham

He's just your regular vanilla narcissist *smile*
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,150
15,003
willo said:
Interesting read for some, sure to be dismissed by others.
Mark Latham is an interesting study, from firebrand Labour leader to state leader and senator for One Nation
I wonder what caused his beliefs to change, if they ever did

His beliefs have changed radically (if you accept he believes what he spouts - I think he's just in it for the money, personally). In his early days he was strongly pro-immigration and scathing of those who he saw as anti-immigration on the basis of race. Despised PHON and Howard for toadying up to them. Was very strong on social justice and the 3rd way. He's flipped 180 degrees.

This was the summary of the book he wrote in 1999 - Civilising Global Capital
Civilising Global Capital : New Thinking for Australian Labor
2.66 (3 ratings by Goodreads)

Paperback English

By (author) Mark Latham

Share

'The Australian people are again looking to Labor for the next generation of public policy ideas and reforms. This is why Mark Latham's book is so valuable. It is a fresh and thoughtful assessment of the means by which Labor might renew its program for social democracy.' - Gough Whitlam

Global capital treats us all with ruthless efficiency. We are either consumers, factors of production, or a deadweight loss. Our human aspirations - individual and social - are feeling the pressure of globalisation.

Globalisation has left parties and politicians struggling for solutions. The political Right has not been able to show, once the active role of government is withdrawn, how individual liberty alone can answer the insecurity and remorseless inequity of an open economy. The choice between market freedom, with its army of working poor, and the failings and unsustainable costs of the welfare state, is barely a choice at all. It simply points to the need for a third way.

Internationally, parties of the Left are responding by reasserting the public values and policies of a good and compassionate society. The choices made by the ALP and other social democratic causes will determine, perhaps permanently, whether these goals remain feasible.

In this book, Mark Latham declares as irrelevant the old politics of the Left/Right divide. He embraces a different set of values and policies - social responsibility, equality of opportunity and merited reward, public mutuality and the wholesale devolution of governance. Fresh solutions to the problems of unemployment, economic sovereignty, tax and welfare are available to us. Latham shows why they are needed, and how they might work.

Civilising Global Capitalism offers a rich and cohesive store of ideas to reconcile the global economy with the values of a decent society. To read it is to take part in the regeneration of Australia s social democracy.

Even Gough Whitlam liked this book.


Here's what he wrote in 2013.


Not Dead Yet: Labor's Post-Left Future: Quarterly Essay 49
3.28 (75 ratings by Goodreads)

Paperback Quarterly Essay English

By (author) Mark Latham

Share

With an election looming and criticism of the ALP now a national pastime, Mark Latham considers the future for Labor. The nation has changed, but can the party? With wit and insight, Latham reveals an organisation top-heavy with factional bosses protecting their turf. At the same time Labor's traditional working-class base has long been eroding. People who grew up in fibro shacks now live in double-storey affluence. Families once resigned to a lifetime of blue-collar work now expect their children to be well-educated professionals and entrepreneurs. Latham explains how Labor has always succeeded as a grassroots party, and argues for reforms to clear out the apparatchiks and dead wood. Then there are the key policy challenges- what to do about the Keating economic legacy, education and poverty. Latham examines the rise of a destructive and reactionary far-right under the wing of Tony Abbott. He also makes the case that climate change is the ultimate challenge - and even opportunity - for a centre-left party. Not Dead Yet is an essential contribution to political debate, which addresses the question- how can Labor reinvent itself and speak to a changed Australia? 'The grand old party of working-class participation has become a virtual party. In no other part of society ... could an organisation function this way and expect to survive. This is the core delusion of 21st-century democracy, that political parties can fragment and hollow out, yet still win the confidence of the people.' Mark Latham


You can probably find threads of his current thinking if you look hard enough. For me he's a great disappointment though, a smart guy who was destroyed by the election loss and then sold out completely. That's just IMO.
 

MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
Feb 3, 2017
13,504
13,984
easy said:
believe me, the food production game is the last place you want to be in at +3oC.

I'd be doing either air conditioning mechanic, embalming or gunsmith

if I was a young fella.

You just need to be in the right location.

Overpopulation is the biggest issue.
 

MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
Feb 3, 2017
13,504
13,984
easy said:
It doesn't really work both ways.

It pretty much works about $250m one way, and probably $15m the other way.

which is a approx nett $235 one way, from the blue side of the spectrum, so

But aren’t there more poor people than rich people? Why are some poor voting liberal if it’s so bad for them?
 

Coburgtiger

Tiger Legend
May 7, 2012
5,041
7,253
MD Jazz said:
You just need to be in the right location.

Overpopulation is the biggest issue.

Yep. We simply need to move the world's supply of tomatoes to the Sahara, and murder half the population.

Thanks Thanos, you got things under control.

It would be really nice if, like the rate of population growth, the rate of increase in CO2 production had decreased every year for the last 30 years.
 
E

easy_tiger

Guest
MD Jazz said:
But aren’t there more poor people than rich people? Why are some poor voting liberal if it’s so bad for them?

They thought that franking credits were free saveloys?

that's about the best ive got.

I don't think they'll head hunt me for Lara Tingles job.