Talking Politics

[DavidSSS]

If your political views are against public health, than one should still be thankful for public health?

I’ll use whatever health service is available given I’ve already paid for it.

Your ideological purity is slipping.

DS

 

[Giardiasis]

More bollocks.

Claiming exclusive rights over a common resource is denying others the ability to use that resource, enforced of course with coercion, but that's a given when you want to claim exclusive use of what has hitherto been common property.

Common property should not be claimed by anyone, what right do they have to claim land? There is no problem with claiming the fruits of their labour, but to then claim that no-one else can access the same resources and claim the fruits of their own labour is a complete contradiction. Who gets this land, the first person to work the land or just the first a***hole to claim it as exclusive property?

The tillers of the land under feudalism were the serfs, not the land owners. You are correct that the land was stolen, stolen from the majority of people, enclosed in early capitalist agriculture, claimed as private property and later sold to those who's forebears lost the right to work the land.

Oh, you get to establish your very own fishing area and screw everyone else. This is how capitalist private property works, it gives exclusive access to whoever claimed the property and denies everyone else the right to make their own living, the right to produce directly for yourself, and forces you to either pay rent on the seized resource or enter into a coercive employment relationship with the so-called owner of the resource.

DS

How can anyone claim the fruits of their labour without establishing property rights to use land and resources to produce something? You have no answer to this. None whatsoever.

There is nothing capitalist about the theft of land under feudalism, stolen property is not private property thus established. It involved private property right violations, completely contradicting lockean homesteading.

No not screw everyone else, everyone else now has the benefits of someone providing a supply of fish that they can now trade with. You really need to stop trying to understand economics, the basics are just too much for you.

 

[Giardiasis]

Your ideological purity is slipping.

DS

If someone steals something from me I’m going to take it back as much as possible.

 

[Sintiger]

If your political views are against public health, than one should still be thankful for public health?

I’ll use whatever health service is available given I’ve already paid for it.

In my opinion anyone who believes that a totally private or market based health system would respond to the current crisis in a way that would be anywhere near the quality of response that we will get from a public system is either poorly informed, delusional or stupid.
This is not an opinion based on political views or ideology. I am working in the system and my opinion is based on what I see and know.
We need a publicly coordinated response motivated by humanity and practicality because we are a society not an economy.
No theory or philosophy will convince me otherwise because I am actually in it and seeing it.
You can have your opinions on this, I don’t really care, but I repeat what I said that everyone should be thankful for our public health system at this moment.
If you aren’t then that’s your prerogative.

 

[Giardiasis]

In my opinion anyone who believes that a totally private or market based health system would respond to the current crisis in a way that would be anywhere near the quality of response that we will get from a public system is either poorly informed, delusional or stupid.
This is not an opinion based on political views or ideology. I am working in the system and my opinion is based on what I see and know.
We need a publicly coordinated response motivated by humanity and practicality because we are a society not an economy.
No theory or philosophy will convince me otherwise because I am actually in it and seeing it.
You can have your opinions on this, I don’t really care, but I repeat what I said that everyone should be thankful for our public health system at this moment.
If you aren’t then that’s your prerogative.

In my opinion anyone that believes a public system would respond in a better way than a private system is either poorly informed, delusional or stupid. Someone that thinks working in a public health system gives them the knowledge that it is superior to a private system doesn’t understand epistemology. They might also be in denial if they think their opinion isn’t influenced by ideology.

We need prices to reflect reality and we need the best people to be able to flourish and provide health services that best reflect consumer demand.

Say what you want but don’t purport to speak for everyone else.

 

[Sintiger]

In my opinion anyone that believes a public system would respond in a better way than a private system is either poorly informed, delusional or stupid. Someone that thinks working in a public health system gives them the knowledge that it is superior to a private system doesn’t understand epistemology. They might also be in denial if they think their opinion isn’t influenced by ideology.

We need prices to reflect reality and we need the best people to be able to flourish and provide health services that best reflect consumer demand.

Say what you want but don’t purport to speak for everyone else.

By the way I have worked in both public and private.
Stick to what you understand. This isn’t it
And btw, how is stating that everyone should feel thankful speaking for others? It’s just an opinion that I have, that everyone should be thankful.

 

[Baloo]

I could just see how a private only response to this would work.

First those that can afford the ridiculous prices, then the next batch with slightly lower prices and so on and so on.

Basically you need to hope you need treatment only when the prices have reached a point you can afford.

A bit like those that advocate the way to stop hoarding is to raise prices to flatten demand. Good for those that can afford it, screw the rest who are already struggling.

 

[Sintiger]

I could just see how a private only response to this would work.

First those that can afford the ridiculous prices, then the next batch with slightly lower prices and so on and so on.

Basically you need to hope you need treatment only when the prices have reached a point you can afford.

A bit like those that advocate the way to stop hoarding is to raise prices to flatten demand. Good for those that can afford it, screw the rest who are already struggling.

It’s even more than that Baloo.
Right now in the health system preparations are underway to massively increase capacity necessary for a enormous surge in demand for respiratory patients. This is about Intensive care beds and equipment and things like ventilators etc. None of these investments are economic decisions, they are human decisions. The alternative is massive numbers of people will die needlessly.
The cost will be huge and no private hospital in this country will invest in that because they know they won’t get a pay back because when it’s all over it won’t be needed anymore.
Private hospitals will soak up much of the demand for elective surgery and routine care that will spill over from the public system and they will be well paid for it, but by the Government because the patients will be public patients

 

[Baloo]

There's also what we see happening now. It's the countries with more government control that have handled this the best.

 

[Giardiasis]

By the way I have worked in both public and private.
Stick to what you understand. This isn’t it
And btw, how is stating that everyone should feel thankful speaking for others? It’s just an opinion that I have, that everyone should be thankful.

What you call private is not what I would call private. I understand well enough thank you.

You said “we should all be very thankful in this time for our public health system”, and I said “Speak for yourself”. I think I then confused matters, but the point I’m making is that I don’t agree with your opinion and it would have been more appropriate to have said “I am very thankful in this time for our public health system”.

 

[Giardiasis]

I could just see how a private only response to this would work.

First those that can afford the ridiculous prices, then the next batch with slightly lower prices and so on and so on.

Basically you need to hope you need treatment only when the prices have reached a point you can afford.

A bit like those that advocate the way to stop hoarding is to raise prices to flatten demand. Good for those that can afford it, screw the rest who are already struggling.

If prices don’t reflect reality, there will be shortages and it won’t matter what price you are prepared to pay it simply won’t be available. Everyone gets screwed.

 

[Giardiasis]

There's also what we see happening now. It's the countries with more government control that have handled this the best.

Eh, come again?

 

[Baloo]

If prices don’t reflect reality, there will be shortages and it won’t matter what price you are prepared to pay it simply won’t be available. Everyone gets screwed.

OK

 

[Baloo]

Eh, come again?

OK

 

[Sintiger]

What you call private is not what I would call private. I understand well enough thank you.

You said “we should all be very thankful in this time for our public health system”, and I said “Speak for yourself”. I think I then confused matters, but the point I’m making is that I don’t agree with your opinion and it would have been more appropriate to have said “I am very thankful in this time for our public health system”.

Clearly by your replies you don’t understand but I will leave it at that.
“confusIng matters” is close to admitting you may be wrong but even then you managed to make it my fault.
I stay with my statement. We should all be thankful for our public health system at this time. That is deliberate, I am not just saying I am thankful but that we should all be thankful. That is my opinion, accept it or not. I don’t really give a toss.

 

[DavidSSS]

How can anyone claim the fruits of their labour without establishing property rights to use land and resources to produce something? You have no answer to this. None whatsoever.

There is nothing capitalist about the theft of land under feudalism, stolen property is not private property thus established. It involved private property right violations, completely contradicting lockean homesteading.

No not screw everyone else, everyone else now has the benefits of someone providing a supply of fish that they can now trade with. You really need to stop trying to understand economics, the basics are just too much for you.

Simple answer: capitalist private property is not the same as property relations before capitalism. Land is actually the classic example, rights to land owners under a feudal system were not exclusive rights, there were residual rights held by non-owners to use the land, generally traditional rights. In any case the owners did not "homestead" the land, they had ownership because it was stolen and given to them by the sovereign, and those who became the owners were certainly not the ones tilling the land, that would be the serfs and peasants - who never got to own the land. Land not "owned" was a common and it wasn't until capitalist notions of exclusive private property arrived that there was any issue with this (see enclosures).

Capitalism, if we date it from agrarian capitalism which started in the UK and slowly replaced feudalism in most of Europe over a long time, is maybe 400 years old. A drop in the ocean in human history. Humans have claimed the fruits of their labour, without the need to deprive others of the ability to produce for themselves, for thousands of years. Yeah I know, sorry to bring facts in, but the reality is that land has been held in common for a lot longer than exclusive private property has existed.

There is a lot capitalist about the theft of commonly held land under feudalism because it was a major contributor to the transition to a capitalist economic system. Learn some history.

Oh, it is a benefit now to be denied the right to catch fish for yourself with the compensation that you can trade for the fish? How idiotic. Not to mention that maintaining the exclusive right to any part of the river will involve coercion and will restrict the freedom of others to produce directly for themselves.

I understand economics very well thank you, I also understand that human communities are not just economic. I'm also not so easily led down the road of an ideological dystopia where everyone is encouraged to be relentlessly selfish, everything is privatised and community is actively discouraged.

You also state that we can't compare public and private health systems. Yes, I know, I'm introducing reality again, I know neo-liberals like theory more than reality, but let's just compare how the Australian health system copes with how the US system copes.

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

Capitalism, if we date it from agrarian capitalism which started in the UK and slowly replaced feudalism in most of Europe over a long time, is maybe 400 years old. A drop in the ocean in human history. Humans have claimed the fruits of their labour, without the need to deprive others of the ability to produce for themselves, for thousands of years. Yeah I know, sorry to bring facts in, but the reality is that land has been held in common for a lot longer than exclusive private property has existed.

Before feudalism n capitalism didn't the local tribes just beat the *smile* out of one another when they wanted a patch of turf that had better hunting, farming or living areas. Pretty sure there's still a fair bit of this sort of *smile* going on now, without any pretence at civility.

 

[Giardiasis]

Clearly by your replies you don’t understand but I will leave it at that.
“confusIng matters” is close to admitting you may be wrong but even then you managed to make it my fault.
I stay with my statement. We should all be thankful for our public health system at this time. That is deliberate, I am not just saying I am thankful but that we should all be thankful. That is my opinion, accept it or not. I don’t really give a toss.

Clearly by your entire history of posting on this site you don’t understand, but I’ll leave it at that.

Your statement was akin to an atheist being told “we should all be thankful that God will save us from the Coronavirus”.

 

[Sintiger]

Clearly by your entire history of posting on this site you don’t understand, but I’ll leave it at that.

Your statement was akin to an atheist being told “we should all be thankful that God will save us from the Coronavirus”.

Last word Larry strikes again
You keep on dreaming of pleasantville and the rest of us will live in the real world
Your arrogance is astounding

 

[Giardiasis]

Simple answer: capitalist private property is not the same as property relations before capitalism. Land is actually the classic example, rights to land owners under a feudal system were not exclusive rights, there were residual rights held by non-owners to use the land, generally traditional rights. In any case the owners did not "homestead" the land, they had ownership because it was stolen and given to them by the sovereign, and those who became the owners were certainly not the ones tilling the land, that would be the serfs and peasants - who never got to own the land. Land not "owned" was a common and it wasn't until capitalist notions of exclusive private property arrived that there was any issue with this (see enclosures).

Capitalism, if we date it from agrarian capitalism which started in the UK and slowly replaced feudalism in most of Europe over a long time, is maybe 400 years old. A drop in the ocean in human history. Humans have claimed the fruits of their labour, without the need to deprive others of the ability to produce for themselves, for thousands of years. Yeah I know, sorry to bring facts in, but the reality is that land has been held in common for a lot longer than exclusive private property has existed.

There is a lot capitalist about the theft of commonly held land under feudalism because it was a major contributor to the transition to a capitalist economic system. Learn some history.

Oh, it is a benefit now to be denied the right to catch fish for yourself with the compensation that you can trade for the fish? How idiotic. Not to mention that maintaining the exclusive right to any part of the river will involve coercion and will restrict the freedom of others to produce directly for themselves.

I understand economics very well thank you, I also understand that human communities are not just economic. I'm also not so easily led down the road of an ideological dystopia where everyone is encouraged to be relentlessly selfish, everything is privatised and community is actively discouraged.

You also state that we can't compare public and private health systems. Yes, I know, I'm introducing reality again, I know neo-liberals like theory more than reality, but let's just compare how the Australian health system copes with how the US system copes.

DS

The only thing I can gather from that garbled word salad is that you consider hand to mouth brutish existence man has endured for most of its history as being superior to the last 400 years and that disputes over land use have only occurred since Capitalism came along. I’m not sure whether to laugh at you or to feel sorry for you.

Ah the neo-liberal jibe, does anyone actually claim to be one of these boogie men? The US health system is a highly regulated and controlled system, private it ain’t.