Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

HR

Tiger Superstar
Mar 20, 2013
2,441
1,517
HR, I swing more to the right than the left and see Morrison as a complete failure. He botched the bushfires and whilst some of his messaging through corona has been ok, there have been a lot of mixed messages coming out of this.

He has totally botched the economic package which could and should have been done in a better way, potentially for cheaper. A lot of the measures made are irrelevant and will have little to no impact, so the statement of $189bn is irrelevant.

Even the $750 payments to pensioners / disabled is mixed messaging. On one hand he is saying to pensioners / disabled to protect yourselves, don't go out much, on the other he is telling them to spend, spend, spend when others that have jobs are thrown to the wolves. The economic incompetence of Morrison / Frydenberg is astounding and will lead to hundreds of thousands of job losses.
Again, nah. I have been reading your posts MrP. And whilst i dont disagree wholeheartedly, here are my thoughts.

*smile* the left and the right *smile* that the left are so dirty about. The left lost through their own fault solely, deal with it lefties and come out swingin next time.

Firstly, I disagree about the bushfires. He was certainly awkward but did not fail. The states failed big time. Big Time! But they seem to be faultless in history.
I know all the rebuttals so please save us that argument again. We disagree.

This time is unprecedented. The catch 22 is getting the money to those who need it now. This is about survival today and tomorrow this week, not about will I have a job in 6 months. This is such a dynamic enviroment that no decision is the last decision. I guarantee there will be more from the governemt. There will be so dont stress about what you cannot control.

We probably all know someone who is being touched by this *smile* virus now through no fault of their own. Take it seriously for the sake of you and your family and for your neighbours.

Edit: we all need to Man up and stop with the blame game of political bias.

All the best MrP
 
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HR

Tiger Superstar
Mar 20, 2013
2,441
1,517
Morrison is a lot of things but boring isn't the first thing that jumps to mind.
Jump in and have a go next election ToO and others if you need to. You know like the sideline parent bagging the boundary ump. If you can do better, please show us. Just stop with the one eyed suppprting.

He is the man in charge. He is the bully, the ad man, the father, the husband, the mate, the son, the churchgoer, the liar, *smile* everything. He is it.

Same as if it was Shorten or Di Natali or Hansen.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
Defences full of holes, but whatever, it all works in the hypothetical universe of perfectly competitive markets.

When I look around me, especially in this time of crisis, I don't see many people acting like this is an opportunity to get ahead and screw everyone else, which is what is encouraged by your ideology. What I do see is people providing mutual aid to their fellow humans, I see community not rampant selfish individualism. Yes there is some of both, but overwhelmingly I see community.

There is a reason why traits like community, mutual aid and the like are viewed as the best of humanity while selfish individualism is seen as the worst of humanity. You can continue to advocate for the worst of humanity, I will continue to advocate for the best of humanity.

Your choice.

DS
I don’t advocate for any of that, you are fighting a strawman. The whole basis of civilisation is social interaction and the division of labour, you don’t get ahead in the long run by screwing everyone. But you keep arguing against a strawman boogie man if it makes you feel better.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
HR, I swing more to the right than the left and see Morrison as a complete failure. He botched the bushfires and whilst some of his messaging through corona has been ok, there have been a lot of mixed messages coming out of this.

He has totally botched the economic package which could and should have been done in a better way, potentially for cheaper. A lot of the measures made are irrelevant and will have little to no impact, so the statement of $189bn is irrelevant.

Even the $750 payments to pensioners / disabled is mixed messaging. On one hand he is saying to pensioners / disabled to protect yourselves, don't go out much, on the other he is telling them to spend, spend, spend when others that have jobs are thrown to the wolves. The economic incompetence of Morrison / Frydenberg is astounding and will lead to hundreds of thousands of job losses.
You sure don’t solve a debt problem by going into more debt.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,856
21,197
You sure don’t solve a debt problem by going into more debt.

Who said this was a debt problem? The thing is, when society is in trouble, that is the time that governments need to borrow and help society to get through whatever is causing the issue.

If you disagree that's fine, but I'd rather communicate with people that live in the real world not some fanciful utopia.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,856
21,197
Again, nah. I have been reading your posts MrP. And whilst i dont disagree wholeheartedly, here are my thoughts.

**** the left and the right **** that the left are so dirty about. The left lost through their own fault solely, deal with it lefties and come out swingin next time.

Firstly, I disagree about the bushfires. He was certainly awkward but did not fail. The states failed big time. Big Time! But they seem to be faultless in history.
I know all the rebuttals so please save us that argument again. We disagree.

This time is unprecedented. The catch 22 is getting the money to those who need it now. This is about survival today and tomorrow this week, not about will I have a job in 6 months. This is such a dynamic enviroment that no decision is the last decision. I guarantee there will be more from the governemt. There will be so dont stress about what you cannot control.

We probably all know someone who is being touched by this ******* virus now through no fault of their own. Take it seriously for the sake of you and your family and for your neighbours.

Edit: we all need to Man up and stop with the blame game of political bias.

All the best MrP

Look I get your point and I agree this isn't a left vs right issue (I didn't bring that up, you did I believe), but this is more do I think Morrison is looking good and making the right decisions. I've been pretty honest with this and the answer is no. Even the current "shutdown" is half hearted and doesn't address all the issues. IMO you either go the whole hog or you don't. I have been critical around the economic stimulus and I still am, the government has repeatedly misunderstood what business requires. I guess I'm in a situation at work where this is very visible, others may not be and might buy into the spin the government has put on this. Take giving extra money to pensioners etc, why is what I ask? They are generally unimpacted financially from this (obviously highly exposed from a medical perspective) but the government want them out and about shopping when they need to protect themselves from society. Very mixed messaging there.

I agree that this is about survival, but that's my point, if you can provide wage subsidies etc to businesses in order to retain workers, then this brings more certainty to wages etc and ensures people have more confidence in their job position which will reduce anxiety from this. The focus all round should be on the virus, but we are having to also grow anxious over what 6 months or 1 year will look like from here yet the government is doing next to nothing to release that anxiety, possibly making it worse. This is a crisis that can't just look at the now, but have to have an eye on the future or we are all in for a world of hurt. Make no mistake the number that die due to the virus could scale into insignificance in the event of wholescale unemployment and job losses, add to that periods of isolation and watch as suicides spike. As I said, you can't just look at the now, you must have an eye on the future too.

Simple economics here, strong businesses are now under significant pressure, and need some support which the government are not providing, at least not in the right way where they need to preserve jobs and the businesses that they work in. They haven't done this and maybe they will bring something in, but that may be too late as businesses are making calls on jobs NOW not in a week or 2, NOW.

If you want to bring it back to the election, I preferred Morrison and still do. Shorten may well have been a bigger disaster, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of the current government, who appear to be preparing for paying people when they close their jobs, rather than paying businesses in order to retain jobs which will have have a much more profound negative impact on our economy than if you encourage businesses to retain workers.

All the best and good health to you too
 

scottyturnerscurse

Tiger Legend
Apr 29, 2006
5,167
2,009
What's the cancel fee on the $50b submarine contract?

Should be the first thing the govt does. It was dumb to sign it, it's madness to continue it.
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
Who said this was a debt problem? The thing is, when society is in trouble, that is the time that governments need to borrow and help society to get through whatever is causing the issue.

If you disagree that's fine, but I'd rather communicate with people that live in the real world not some fanciful utopia.
The people that think more debt is the solution to this are the one’s living in some fanciful utopia. Doing what you say will just make the problem worse. We need to cut government spending, cut regulations that burden business and pay our debts. In addition, it is prudent for individuals to support their family and friends as best they can.
 

MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
Feb 3, 2017
13,329
13,715
No point providing wage subsidies to business if they have no income. Whole industries will be shutting down, no point them trying to continue with no sales.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,017
14,794
The people that think more debt is the solution to this are the one’s living in some fanciful utopia. Doing what you say will just make the problem worse. We need to cut government spending, cut regulations that burden business and pay our debts. In addition, it is prudent for individuals to support their family and friends as best they can.

So cut spending, scale back, austerity, pay debts with money we don't have. We really will go back to that libertarian utopia of feudalism.

On one thing I agree - our current system of rampant capitalism with government quantitive easing bailing out corporations in tough times and letting them make profits with no tax in the good times is not sustainable.

I'd love to see us go back to smaller communities, more self-sustaining, more sustainable, less travel and less material goods. Whether thats an anarchist/socialist society or a libertarian one, not sure.

Family and friends are helping each other and always will, so agree with that.
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
So cut spending, scale back, austerity, pay debts with money we don't have. We really will go back to that libertarian utopia of feudalism.

On one thing I agree - our current system of rampant capitalism with government quantitive easing bailing out corporations in tough times and letting them make profits with no tax in the good times is not sustainable.

I'd love to see us go back to smaller communities, more self-sustaining, more sustainable, less travel and less material goods. Whether thats an anarchist/socialist society or a libertarian one, not sure.

Family and friends are helping each other and always will, so agree with that.
Fiat money, central banks and fractional reserve banking must be abolished. Sound money (i.e. gold) must return. Government bailouts are not capitalism and neither are taxes. Get rid of both.

We can’t pay back debts with money we don’t have, correct. We must either choose default or hyperinflation. I hope for the former but am expecting the latter.

Smaller communities sounds good to me, bloated centralised governments have brought us to our knees (not just ours). Restoring the division of labour however is paramount to civilisation.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,525
17,883
Melbourne
I don’t advocate for any of that, you are fighting a strawman. The whole basis of civilisation is social interaction and the division of labour, you don’t get ahead in the long run by screwing everyone. But you keep arguing against a strawman boogie man if it makes you feel better.

So you admit that you aren't even aware of the basics behind what you spout.

One of the fundamental differences between traditional liberalism and neo-liberalism is that traditional liberalism was based on the idea that you get ahead and in doing so others will remain as well off as they are or also rise (the analogy of tides making all ships rise). Neo-liberalism is based on get ahead and if that means others suffer then so be it.

Neo-liberalism and the free market fundamentalists we've seen over the last few decades come out game theory and its application to economics by people like Buchanan.

You talk a lot about Hayek, but Hayek did not envisage a stateless free market society with privatisation of the ocean and the like, so who do you go to when you take this further, Rothbard maybe?

In any case the dystopia of a stateless society based on private property and free markets is just the privatisation of the coercive power of government, it just substitutes a private coercer for the public coercer.

DS