Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

Hard to tell the extent of the invasion at the moment. Is it just the breakaway regions and Odessa or the whole country? Should become clearer soon.

Still can't see how a full scale invasion serves Putin's interests or Russia's interests. Putin ain't stupid, he is up to something, could just be he wants Ukraine badly enough it is worth the cost.

DS
 
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Hard to tell the extent of the invasion at the moment. Is it just the breakaway regions and Odessa or the whole country? Should become clearer soon.

Still can't see how a full scale invasion serves Putin's interests or Russia's interests. Putin ain't stupid, he is up to something, could just be he wants Ukraine badly enough it is worth the cost.

DS
No, I don't think he is willing to bare the cost of a long, drawn out conflict. He is taking the gamble that Russia forces the Ukraine into a feeling of hopelessness and hence they take the path of least resistance and surrender (either full or partial) sovereignty within a week or two. What form it takes after that is of some conjecture. It could be that just the breakaway regions are absorbed fully into Russia, with the rest of the Ukraine gaining a Russian puppet government (like Belarus) and functioning as a quasi state of Russia, but not officially on the map. Kind of how the likes of Poland and Czechoslovakia operated during the Warsaw pact years.
 
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Ok, not unpredictable.

So, Putin's demands. Firstly, you need to look at this from Putin's perspective:
1) No expansion of NATO. Well, he is running one country, and likely somewhat p!ssed off that there is a whole alliance of countries ranged against him. Why wouldn't he want that alliance to stop expanding? Putin is often criticised for sabre rattling, surely expanding an alliance clearly aimed at his country would be seen by Putin as not only sabre rattling but a real threat.
2) Troops out of Eastern Europe. You mean, he is asking that troops not be amassed near his borders? Um, the west went apoplectic when he started to mass troops on his border with Ukraine, but apparently they can amass troops near Russia. yeah, hard to see how Putin has a problem with that . . . or is it?
3) US not to use nukes defending Eastern European allies - this is what the guy in the video said but in his list he omits the nukes part. Seems reasonable really.

Ok, so the problem with Putin's perspective is that he is not looking at this in an unbiased way, then again, neither is anyone else.

Putin obviously wants greater Russia back, knows he won't get it but wants to grab any bit he can. He also wants compliant regimes near his borders. Plus, Putin knows he will not get a big reaction if he takes over Ukraine. He has already taken bits without much response so why not the rest? Why not? Because the cost may be too high, although Putin's calculations on this may not be the same as anyone else's.

It is not so much working out what Putin wants, he wants Russia to return to the borders it had after WWII, which are similar to the borders they had before WWI (actually the Russian Empire included Poland, Finland and a few other bits besides before WWI), but, hey, Europe: borders move a lot amongst the warring tribes in that region!

Yes, Putin does see the situation somewhat from the perspective of the old USSR, but so do the west. Putin does act as if the cold war never ended, but so do the West. NATO exists as a counter-balance to the USSR, oh sorry Russia now, but NATO's existence makes no sense except as an oppositional force to Russia.

It is more a case of working out what Putin thinks he can get away with, and also that the more he gets away with the more he is likely to push. Combine this with all the other factors such as Western Europe's reliance on Russia for gas and oil, a reluctance from the USA to intervene militarily, an inability from Europe to respond militarily, and many other factors I don't know about or have forgotten, and it becomes a lot less predictable.

None of this excuses invading Ukraine, and it is not clear he has invaded apart from the parts which he no longer recognises as part of Ukraine plus some disabling of possible military opposition, but one should always seek to find out how it is explained and/or justified.

DS

Just as an aside, here is a map of the western borders of the Russian Empire before WWI:

Russia_1000.jpg


Yeah, you can see here that Russia used to be a lot larger than it is now.
 
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New Libs and Independent Voices will worry any sitting government. I hope they don't contest against each other.

This is actually a bit of a problem. Victor Kline from TNL is currently running third and independent Kylea Tink is running second in North Sydney. Despi O’Connor put her hand up for the “voices of” movement in Nepean – but lost out – has decided to run as an independent anyway. Its OK if they preference each other, but you can see the Liberals attempt to make deals with them.
 
Western expansionism, what sanctions have been imposed?

DS
That is rubbish David. Those countries joined NATO to provide security against the aggression of Russia. And from what we are seeing now they will be thanking their lucky stars that they were granted NATO membership. The Ukraine is defenceless against Russian might. Vlad would be planning the exact same thing against the Baltic states if they weren't NATO members; he may have already invaded them by now if it wasn't the case.

These countries have a right to determine how they are governed and what alliances they make. They obviously prefer democracy and self rule to the dictatorship they had to put up with in the Soviet days. NATO expansion is not about aggression towards Russia; it is about protection from Russia. With good reason as we are seeing right now.
 
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I am not an expert on geopolitics in this region, but are 2 of the reasons why Russia has invaded the Ukraine is because they wanna join NATO and the EU? Uncle Rupert has certainly got his Fox News attack dogs in the USA pushing a pro-Russia agenda, and we all know what he thinks of the EU.

Certainly that's one of the reasons. Putin is dead against NATO expansion towards his borders. When his hand picked US President was in power he made sure NATO was weakened.
 
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Yes, Trump actually wanted the US to withdraw from NATO.

Putin may not be Communist (any more) but he certainly wants a new kind of Soviet Union/Russian empire.
 
That is rubbish David. Those countries joined NATO to provide security against the aggression of Russia. And from what we are seeing now they will be thanking their lucky stars that they were granted NATO membership. The Ukraine is defenceless against Russian might. Vlad would be planning the exact same thing against the Baltic states if they weren't NATO members; he may have already invaded them by now if it wasn't the case.

These countries have a right to determine how they are governed and what alliances they make. They obviously prefer democracy and self rule to the dictatorship they had to put up with in the Soviet days. NATO expansion is not about aggression towards Russia; it is about protection from Russia. With good reason as we are seeing right now.
 
I wasn't specifically referring to Ukraine as a democracy; more so it's right to sovereignty and self determination. Putin has no right to invade Ukraine.
True it doesn't have the right to invade Ukraine, but unfortunately politics is largely driven by power. The government has no right to force me to pay taxes but I'd be thrown into prison if I didn't. So to avoid conflict I pay the powerful aggressor.
 
True it doesn't have the right to invade Ukraine, but unfortunately politics is largely driven by power. The government has no right to force me to pay taxes but I'd be thrown into prison if I didn't. So to avoid conflict I pay the powerful aggressor.
I wondered how long it would take you to post that correlation :mhihi
 
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I wondered how long it would take you to post that correlation :mhihi
haha, i was just thinking the same.
those Ukrainians think they have it rough, they should try being poor G-man being forced to pay taxes in Australia.
 
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haha, i was just thinking the same.
those Ukrainians think they have it rough, they should try being poor G-man being forced to pay taxes in Australia.

If he went to Russia he could become an oligarch and cut a deal with Putin so he doesn't have to pay taxes. Well, except the Putin tax.
 
These countries have a right to determine how they are governed and what alliances they make. They obviously prefer democracy and self rule to the dictatorship they had to put up with in the Soviet days. NATO expansion is not about aggression towards Russia; it is about protection from Russia. With good reason as we are seeing right now.

I wasn't specifically referring to Ukraine as a democracy; more so it's right to sovereignty and self determination. Putin has no right to invade Ukraine.

Which is it?

DS