Tanking

[the claw]

Claw,

Tanking or "bottoming out" to me is purely on-field performance and where we finish on the ladder and I think we have completed this part with distinction over the years.

However, you seem to see 'bottoming out' as finishing low on the ladder as well as playing youth and gaining high draft picks.....and as you say yourself numerous times (see the highlighted parts of your post), we have had high draft picks in the past and traded them away or used them to bring recycled players into our system.
Its what I have said also (see my highlighted part):

So surely, the answer to sustained success isn't losing games and gaining high draft picks...we've been there and done that.
What we haven't done is utilise those high draft picks in the past to the best of our ability (which I think we agree on going by your post and my post), which to me says that we haven't had the off-field part of our club in good order...whether it be:
* lack of recruitment staff and therefore recruiting poor players
* that the coach and coaching staff have taken short cuts by topping up and trying to get immediate success instead of taking a long-term view
* we have drafted young talent but haven't had the development inftrastructure to bring out the best of the young talent we have drafted to elevate them from junior guns to very good AFL players.

As we have seen over the years....'tanking' or finishing low and therefore gaining high draft picks isn't the answer to sustained success unless you have all the off-field infrastructures right beforehand.

Either the pro-tankers don't see this...or they believe we do currently have all the I's dotted and T's crossed when it comes to our off-field departments.
Do you think we have Claw?
Because if we don't then tanking and high draft picks are going to mean jack sh!t again, aren't they?
You've highlighted this yourself.

as i said i would give you the last word all can say is we are poles apart and have totally differing views we will have to agree to disagree because i refuse to go around in circles.

all will say is give me the job to build a top 4 list going thru the bottoming out processes youth policy tanking whatever you want to call it that i have been going on about for yrs and i would guarantee at least a top 4 finish at the end of that process. how long the process takes, rebuilt list in 3 or 4 yrs, and top 4 a couple of yrs after that. may be less as some work has been done.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

6 or 7 yrs now ive been calling for a total cleanout and a proper  bottoming out process utiliseing the draft to the max staying down and gettin our hands on the top 5 picks and pps.

Let's say we won our first two games next year against e.g. Sydney & North. Would you be advocating writing off the season at that point? Or would you be in favour of ensuring we were 0-2 instead of 2-0?

 

[Liverpool]

as i said i would give you the last word all can say is we are poles apart and have totally differing views we will have to agree to disagree because i refuse to go around in circles.
all will say is give me the job to build a top 4 list going thru the bottoming out processes youth policy tanking whatever you want to call it that i have been going on about for yrs and i would guarantee at least a top 4 finish at the end of that process. how long the process takes, rebuilt list in 3 or 4 yrs, and top 4 a couple of yrs after that. may be less as some work has been done.

Claw,
To be really honest...and after reading your last 2 posts...I don't think we are poles apart at all.

You said yourself that we have had high draft picks and traded them away.
I AGREE WITH YOU

You say that give you 3-4 years to build a list that would be successful....sure, even though I don't personally know you...you probably would do half a bad job.
I AGREE WITH YOU.

However, in theory that sounds easy....we tank or 'bottom out' for 3-4 seasons, gain high draft picks, use them to draft top young talent and then added with the likes of Lids, Bling, Cotchin, Vickery, etc...we have a base of a very good team to win a flag.
Woohoo! Sustained success!

All fantasy I'm afraid.....great in an ideal world...but in reality:

Firstly, you have a draft system.
Last night on The Footy Show when they discussed tanking...Brayshaw said its a lottery between picks 1-5......I'd go one step further and say its a lottery between picks 1-10.
There have been some excellent players picked up in positions 5-10 over the last 10 years....Joel Corey, James Bartel, Andrew Mackie, Hamish McIntosh, Jordan Lewis, Patrick Ryder, Joel Selwood, Rhys Palmer...and this year, Daniel Rich.
Not bad when you look at it....and three-quarters of the Geelong midfield (take out Ablett) picked between pick 5-10!
Thats why losing games to move up from pick-4 to pick-3 or something is superfluous, especially if you have a good recruitment infrastructure at the club as well as a good devlopment infrastructure to bring the best out of the young players you draft.
Surely we haven't had that if we are having a top-5 draft pick play 'ordinarily' for 4 and a bit seasons and then only a visit to a bloody hypnotist seems to have turned him around.
Have we got the best out of Lids to date? have we wrecked the likes of Fiora, Pettifer, and JON? or were they just poor players to begin with and our lack of recruitment infrastructure made mistakes?

Secondly....people will now say about a priority-pick....again, a lottery.

While its important to have some high draft picks....(you don't want your first pick being at 35 or something when all the cream is gone).....I think the emphasis on losing games to move up one spot or to even gain an extra pick in the top-20 isn't an exact science and that basing the future of the club on it is wrong.
Whose to say Claw the players you draft don't break a leg like Nathan Brown? have off-field problems like Laurence Angwin? or just don't live up to the hype like a Travis Johnstone or a Des Headland?
Then what do we do?
Tank for another 3-4 years to try and make up for past mistakes?

Thirdly....what about all the other factors related to tanking...

* Drafting other young guns over a period of 3-4 seasons might sound good in theory....but what happens if a Lids, Bling, Cotchin, or Vickery don't want to wait around that long for a success that might not even come anyway?
Brad Ottens, drafted by us at pick-2, went to Geelong and won a Premiership...so there are no guarantees your nucleus of the team is going to stay while you rebuild either.

* What about sponsorship and corporate investment into the club?
In a time of economic hardship for companies...who the hell wants to continue to pour money into a club that is going nowhere for a few seasons?
And with that lack of money....will that hurt your recruitment and development departments when trying to rebuild your list..?

* What about the fans and members?
We invest time and money into the club...how many are going to be disinterested during this time...crowd numbers will drop off...all affecting your bottom line as well as money that you would pour into your football department.

* What about the players?
How hard would it be to recruit out of contract players to the club if it is anchored to the bottom?
What about the morale of the current Richmond players.....not only do you risk losing your "future elite" players who are already impatient for success...but what about the older players and leaders at the club who want to taste some success before they are shunted out the door. Why would they give 100% when the idea of the club is to bottom-out for 3-4 seasons for "maybe" future success?
Reemember the hullaballoo when Wallace spoke about success in 2011?

* What about coaches?
How hard is it going to be to attract not only a good senior coach when his agenda is to lose games?
How is that going to affect someone whose coaching is going to look shithouse to the footballing community...who will be derided and chastised and humiliated as his team suffers defeat after defeat..while the fans call for blood?
And then how hard is it going to be to attract assistant coaches... whose job it is is to develop young kids in their respective groups (forward/midfields/backs) yet you don't want them to do well for fear of actually winning a game?

* And with the lack of money because of lost revenue (be it low crowds, drop off in memberships, or lack of corporate investment)...do we then do a North Melbourne and play more games interstate? How is that going to affect the fanbase in Melbourne and the players?

People say why win meaningless games towards the end of the season.....well, go to a game surrounded by other Tiger fans...see the kids with a smile on their faces, or the bloke behind you singing the club song, or the players hugging each other and kissing fans as they hand out little footballs to kids that will cherish and show off to their mates at school.

While the pro-tankers or pro-bottoming-out advocates think that by continuously losing games over a period of time and gaining high draft picks is the answer to sustained success....in reality, it could be a lot more destructive to the club than what they realise.

Is risking all of the above worth it to move up one spot in a lottery....or gain an extra pick in the lottery?

 

[lukeanddad]

Lovely, lucid reading Liverpool!

Couldn't agree more.

We have had some ripper selections in the last five years. The fact that we have fluffed a few is a bit disconcerting, but I reckon every club has their share of these stories.

Our probs have been more in the area of moving Meyer/Patto/JON - and probably a few others - up from being good kids to being good, mature footballers. Even Tambling has taken 4.5 years or so to move from ordinary to very good.

Tanking is not the solution - for all the great reasons you gave. Notably, the one about success. otto is a great example - and someone like Cotch/Lids will be targeted by a number of clubs in the coming years. We don't want to keep reminding them that tanking is good - but hang around for three more years for the benefits.

Hell, I wouldn't settle for that in business.

 

[IanG]

KB on his soap box again this morning about this. Christ if I was Greg Denham I couldn't stop myself throttling him with the way he goes on with his head in the sand.

 

[Mr Pumblechook]

It seems that enough momentum is gathering that the AFL will have to look at tanking.

I just hope that when the do, they don't over-react and make huge, wholesale changes to the system, but instead tweak what already exists.

Perhaps first remove or change the priority picks.

After a few years, if tanking is still and issue, then consider a lottery for the draft.

Changing both at the same time, when changes to one might fix things, could swing the pendulum too far the other way.

 

[TOT70]

Like Bomber Thompson's comments today in HUN, Tank warfare, top corner, p.82.

"The League needs to keep an open mind to change based on current circumstances, such as new teams joining and teams such as Westcoast going from Grand Finals to priority pick eligibility in a SHORT SPACE OF TIME."

Love your work (words) Bomber!

That's what I have been saying.

Priority Picks are a good thing. Allowing recent Grand Finalists to have access to them is a bad thing. Tying them to the win-loss ratio is a bad thing.

Give them to the perennial cellar-dwellers only.

Otherwise, once the GC and WS thing will sort itself out, we will see Geelong and StKilda use them to pump their teams straight back up again.

 

[Tigerfan]

i know how to fix tanking.

1. Cut priority picks
2. Give the premier pick 1, runner up pick 2, preliminary finalists pick 3 and 4....all the way to the wooden spooner who gets pick 16

then start again

easy