Tennis

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Nope. Not me, Knight. He made it about race when used a racist trope.

But that's such a throwaway line. You can't convict someone of racism with that. In fact you'd really want to have your house in order.

 

[Midsy]

Nope. Not me, Knight. He made it about race when used a racist trope. You tried to deflect with a silly reference to a caricature of McEnroe as though it proved he may have suffered from systemic racism due to being white and depicted in a way that reinforced centuries of oppression and racism. That is the only way your use of McEnroe can have any baring on this issue.

I can separate Williams's conduct from Knight's. Serena needs censure for being a poor sport. Knight needs censure for being lazy and casually racist.

The McEnroe cartoon showed a white person behaving badly. The only difference was the colour of the skin - which is an accurate reflection of fact. How can one be racist and not the other...?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

The McEnroe cartoon showed a white person behaving badly. The only difference was the colour of the skin - which is an accurate reflection of fact. How can one be racist and not the other...?

[edit] What is difference? I've explained it twice now. It's almost as though you don't really want understand? :don't know

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Sums it up for me.

Serena Williams, a deserved legend in her own lifetime, owes a public apology to Naomi Osaka, match umpire Carlos Ramos and the world’s tennis fans. She was the perpetrator, not the victim, of unprovoked abuse. Women should be among the first to recognize and condemn blame-shifting from the perpetrator to the victim. Attempts to confuse her on-court behavior with historical injustices to women and the “everyone else does it” fallacy are an aggravating, not an extenuating, circumstance. Far from advancing, her apologists damage the cause of women’s rights and racial equality.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/09/13/commentary/japan-commentary/serena-williams-owes-triple-apology/#.W5pgpugzZjE

And published with a none-too-flattering photo.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

How else could he have drawn her then?

Without being lazy and casually racist. Some people have had a crack. Here's one effort:

Here's another:

Here's one that isn't trying to be flattering but still isn't obviously racist:

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Sums it up for me.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/09/13/commentary/japan-commentary/serena-williams-owes-triple-apology/#.W5pgpugzZjE

And published with a none-too-flattering photo.

Agree with most of that but you miss the point spectacularly. I haven't read anyone here excuse her behaviour. She and Knight can both be wrong. I think they are.

 

[alexwern]

Agree with most of that but you miss the point spectacularly. I haven't read anyone here excuse her behaviour. She and Knight can both be wrong. I think they are.

He drew Aretha Franklin a couple of weeks ago without making her look like a disrespectful caricature from 50 years ago. He could have drawn her that way.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Agree with most of that but you miss the point spectacularly. I haven't read anyone here excuse her behaviour. She and Knight can both be wrong. I think they are.

I've spent more time looking at it than it's worth, and it still looks reasonable to me.

 

[TigerForce]

Without being lazy and casually racist. Some people have had a crack. Here's one effort:

Here's another:

Here's one that isn't trying to be flattering but still isn't obviously racist:

That third one is clearly offensive and looks nothing like her, and, neither of the three have anything to do with the actual story of her throwing a tantrum. That was Knight's point and that's how he draws.

No offense in this picture's comments: https://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/Serena%20Williams_104672

Many others show her with big lips and big cheeks: https://www.google.com.au/search?tbm=isch&q=serena+williams+cartoons&chips=q:serena+williams+cartoon,g_4:caricature&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ-63d_LfdAhUHE4gKHWAAAeAQ4lYIMSgA&biw=1168&bih=517&dpr=1.17#imgrc=_&spf=1536845095450

It's those who see these 'sambo' features that have racism in their mind more than others. I only see an African-American lady who's a champion tennis player, and in fact rather cute if you really wanna know.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I've spent more time looking at it than it's worth, and it still looks reasonable to me.

Fair enough. Her hair is not sticking out the top of her head (the way it is usually depicted in historical racist cartoons...and Knight's cartoon). She isn't wearing earrings (the way the racist cartoon characters always are..and Knight has drawn). Her lips aren't big even for an African-American (the way the racist trope always is...and Knight's cartoon).

I get the point of caricature, and taking gutfulls erudite identification of me a snowflake into account, but I think Knight knew what very close to the edge, and i think his editors knew it too. Cartoonists are like any other artist and usually have pretty good understanding of the history of their art, especially satirists.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Fair enough. Her hair is not sticking out the top of her head (the way it is usually depicted in historical racist cartoons...and Knight's cartoon). She isn't wearing earrings (the way the racist cartoon characters always are..and Knight has drawn). Her lips aren't big even for an African-American (the way the racist trope always is...and Knight's cartoon).

I get the point of caricature, and taking gutfulls erudite identification of me a snowflake into account, but I think Knight knew what very close to the edge, and i think his editors knew it too. Cartoonists are like any other artist and usually have pretty good understanding of the history of their art, especially satirists.

Her hair's flying up because she's jumping. He's taken some poetic licence there.

Haven't been able to work out whether they're earrings or just ear lobes. Given the attention to detail elsewhere, suspect the latter.

Do you think if her lips were drawn a little smaller, this stink wouldn't have been kicked up?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

That third one is clearly offensive and looks nothing like her, and, neither of the three have anything to do with the actual story of her throwing a tantrum. That was Knight's point and that's how he draws.

No offense in this picture's comments: https://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/Serena%20Williams_104672

Many others show her with big lips and big cheeks: https://www.google.com.au/search?tbm=isch&q=serena+williams+cartoons&chips=q:serena+williams+cartoon,g_4:caricature&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ-63d_LfdAhUHE4gKHWAAAeAQ4lYIMSgA&biw=1168&bih=517&dpr=1.17#imgrc=_&spf=1536845095450

It's those who see these 'sambo' features that have racism in their mind more than others. I only see an African-American lady who's a champion tennis player, and in fact rather cute if you really wanna know.

I think a lot of them probably are. I didn't have racism on my mind when I first looked at the cartoon. It was only on reflection, later. Something about it was bugging me. It just kept drawing my mind back to some image I had seen in the past. Probably a conflation of many images. I posted the "Inki" character because I can see the resemblance and it points to obvious casual racism. I can imagine a bone-through-the-nose in Knight's caricature as not being immediately out of place. She looks like an old school depiction of an African savage to me. And like you I generally find her pretty cute so that colours my view too.

I was chatting to my brother in Aus this morning and he brought up the cartoon he remembered from being a kid without me saying anything about it. I posted it in this thread earlier because it was one of the images that sprang to mind for me too.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Her hair's flying up because she's jumping. He's taken some poetic licence there.

Haven't been able to work out whether they're earrings or just ear lobes. Given the attention to detail elsewhere, suspect the latter.

Do you think if her lips were drawn a little smaller, this stink wouldn't have been kicked up?

If it resembled her a little better who knows? Yes all of your points are fair. The problem I have is how well they correlate with the racist trope too. I just don't think that happened by accident. I am not saying he was intentionally being racist. Just that when he started drawing her, that is where his creativity took him. Those images were in his head and they contributed to the final outcome. He should have seen it and understood that it was wrong, and started again. Given satire requires a good knowledge of the zeitgeist I am really surprised that Knight is surprised by the reaction. A tin ear is not usually found on a satirist.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

In other news, myspace is still a thing?

 

[TigerForce]

I think a lot of them probably are. I didn't have racism on my mind when I first looked at the cartoon. It was only on reflection, later. Something about it was bugging me. It just kept drawing my mind back to some image I had seen in the past. Probably a conflation of many images. I posted the "Inki" character because I can see the resemblance and it points to obvious casual racism. I can imagine a bone-through-the-nose in Knight's caricature as not being immediately out of place. She looks like an old school depiction of an African savage to me. And like you I generally find her pretty cute so that colours my view too.

I was chatting to my brother in Aus this morning and he brought up the cartoon he remembered from being a kid without me saying anything about it. I posted it in this thread earlier because it was one of the images that sprang to mind for me too.

I think the problem really lies with that ugly expression, masculine-type face he drew, which admittedly, could've been improved a bit.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I think the problem really lies with that ugly expression, masculine-type face he drew, which admittedly, could've been improved a bit.

He's a cartoonist, he lives and dies by how good his drawings are. This one isn't very good and probably unintentionally has some racist overtones. He should have taken it on the chin but he decided to dig in and was then swamped by his editors on the front page the next day. Put him in a pretty unenviable position. I will be watching Insiders on the ABC this week very closely it will be interesting to see how they handle it on their "Talking Pictures" segment. He often co-hosts it.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

I am not saying he was intentionally being racist. Just that when he started drawing her, that is where his creativity took him. Those images were in his head and they contributed to the final outcome.

That's a reasonable enough opinion to hold, if you took offence at the cartoon. Would be happy enough for it to be put to him in a civil setting (not an interrogation), some time from now, and for him to explain the finer points of his art.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

That's a reasonable enough opinion to hold, if you took offence at the cartoon. Would be happy enough for it to be put to him in a civil setting (not an interrogation), some time from now, and for him to explain the finer points of his art.

Yup. Pretty hard for him when his boss decides to use his cartoon to put a thumb-in-the-eye of the "snowflakes" and "nanny-staters" by putting it on the front page. Nothing he could have done about that.

 

[MD Jazz]

If it resembled her a little better who knows? Yes all of your points are fair. The problem I have is how well they correlate with the racist trope too. I just don't think that happened by accident. I am not saying he was intentionally being racist. Just that when he started drawing her, that is where his creativity took him. Those images were in his head and they contributed to the final outcome. He should have seen it and understood that it was wrong, and started again. Given satire requires a good knowledge of the zeitgeist I am really surprised that Knight is surprised by the reaction. A tin ear is not usually found on a satirist.

"Just that when he started drawing her, that is where his creativity took him. Those images were in his head and they contributed to the final outcome"

That's a long bow to draw.

You could also argue she was drawn behaving like a brat, hence the accentuated lips (highlighting the dummy spit, the hair is as LTRTR says, flying up as she is jumping up and down. Her eyes are screwed up in rage. If they are earrings it may be it is highlighting the "princess" like tantrum?

 

[Tigers of Old]

He drew Aretha Franklin a couple of weeks ago without making her look like a disrespectful caricature from 50 years ago. He could have drawn her that way.

So why did he draw one that way & not the other if he's racist?
It's because only one was behaving like a brat that's why.
Serena's ugly on court behavior was reflected in the cartoon.