The big picture: improvement is not a ratchet

[tigersnake]

Where do you get this dartboard strategy from Snake.

Are you not happy with FJ? In his eyes the recruiting dep't has been adequately resourced for a good while now.

I think we've discussed it before Leysy. Drafting after the second round is bit of a raffle, and after the third round is a lot of a raffle. You can lessen the odds with money and the big clubs have done that. But we, rightly in my book, explicitly started small, get the early picks right and build from there. Lets just try to build a competitive side before we think flags. I'm very happy with FJ, especially considering the compromised drafts and that he's had less resources, (slowly building now), than the big clubs he's expected to compete with.

The dartboard strategy was just referring to the way we used to draft, pick and hope we get a full house of stars, when the odds are stacked against that happening. Dimma and Francis are just playing the odds, which I think has been correct. They knew we'd be at least competitve, and possibly, with some luck, a force by now. We aren't a force, we need to re-assess. Its not really surprising.

We've been smart, disciplined, steady and workmanlike, and worked within our limitations, to get from crap to decent (which is commendable considering how bad we were). We have to be bold now, coaching, trading and drafting, to take the next step. Thats how it should be.

 

[houdini]

Geelong dropped out of the 8 in 2006. 2007 marked the start of their dynasty.

we are not even close

 

[Leysy Days]

I think we've discussed it before Leysy. Drafting after the second round is bit of a raffle, and after the third round is a lot of a raffle. You can lessen the odds with money and the big clubs have done that. But we, rightly in my book, explicitly started small, get the early picks right and build from there. Lets just try to build a competitive side before we think flags. I'm very happy with FJ, especially considering the compromised drafts and that he's had less resources, (slowly building now), than the big clubs he's expected to compete with.

The dartboard strategy was just referring to the way we used to draft, pick and hope we get a full house of stars, when the odds are stacked against that happening. Dimma and Francis are just playing the odds, which I think has been correct. They knew we'd be at least competitve, and possibly, with some luck, a force by now. We aren't a force, we need to re-assess. Its not really surprising.

We've been smart, disciplined, steady and workmanlike, and worked within our limitations, to get from crap to decent (which is commendable considering how bad we were). We have to be bold now, coaching, trading and drafting, to take the next step. Thats how it should be.

Go for more youth with our mid to late draft picks now?

 

[tigersnake]

Go for more youth with our mid to late draft picks now?

I reckon

and also make a bold move, a trade for an early pick or a play for a classy free agent.

 

[Leysy Days]

Leysy reckons there's flaws in that Snake.

Firstly, it will take a while for these guys to start impacting senior football. Say 3 years from when they start playing senior footy in 12 mths. Lids will be 30 by then. Wouldn't we want as kids as possible to be closer in age to him.

Secondly, if we need to take a dip in form while we blood youth Dimma would have got far more patience from the masses if he'd continued on this path after his first three years (this is when he changed tact). You only have to see the boards this year to realise a step back will be difficult now.

Lastly, Leysy disagrees that a lack of resources meant going for more youth would have been ill-advised. Teams like North & Port have gone down this path through the draft in recent years with excellent success.

And there recruiting budget would be a deal less than ours...

 

[tigersnake]

Leysy reckons there's flaws in that Snake.

Firstly, it will take a while for these guys to start impacting senior football. Say 3 years from when they start playing senior footy in 12 mths. Lids will be 30 by then. Wouldn't we want as kids as possible to be closer in age to him.

Secondly, if we need to take a dip in form while we blood youth Dimma would have got far more patience from the masses if he'd continued on this path after his first three years (this is when he changed tact). You only have to see the boards this year to realise a step back will be difficult now.

Lastly, Leysy disagrees that a lack of resources meant going for more youth would have been ill-advised. Teams like North & Port have gone down this path through the draft in recent years with excellent success.

And there recruiting budget would be a deal less than ours...

good point on north and Port, but she's a long season and they'll probably have slumps, and hopefully we'll hit some form, but I definately take your point.

If I was Francis, Dimma and Benny, I'd focus on fast and classy juniors next draft (regardless of form for rest of year) and go after a star FA. Hopefully a couple more youngsters are getting games and having an impact. All easier said than done of course, we'd be competing with other sides thinking the same thing.

 

[Tygrys]

Leysy reckons there's flaws in that Snake.

Firstly, it will take a while for these guys to start impacting senior football. Say 3 years from when they start playing senior footy in 12 mths. Lids will be 30 by then. Wouldn't we want as kids as possible to be closer in age to him.

This is actually a good argument to dangle Deledio out as tradebait rather than compromise going hard in the draft for youth. Deledio is the sole survivor of two disastrous drafts. He is at the top end age wise of our elite or A grade talent, it is extremely doubtful he will be there when we can make a serious challenge. Trading a player like Deledio for a good first round pick would be both brave and aggressive (plus depending to whom he would go to might also give him some chance for success before he retires).

To be honest if we kept Deledio (as I sure we will, being bold to get early picks or improve the ones we have are not in our DNA) I'm comfortable with that. However, no one player, including one as valuable as Deledio should be allowed to compromise our drafting of youth. Get the best kids available, period.

 

[tigergollywog]

I think folks are a little depressed and disconvovulated, which is entirely understandable, and veiwing our list though a grey filter. Lennon could be everything we hope for and more. He could be the new chad wingard. The impact of having our ruckman, full back and quarterback out shouldnt be underestimated either. Dont forget the worlds tallest small forward in calculations either. agree its also time to pay though the nose for some match winning talent. been banging on a bit about shaun burgoyne lately.

Reckon Dimma would be sending Mick Malthouse roses chocolates ATM.

 

[St Kevin]

I think folks are a little depressed and disconvovulated, which is entirely understandable, and veiwing our list though a grey filter. Lennon could be everything we hope for and more. He could be the new chad wingard. The impact of having our ruckman, full back and quarterback out shouldnt be underestimated either. Dont forget the worlds tallest small forward in calculations either. agree its also time to pay though the nose for some match winning talent. been banging on a bit about shaun burgoyne lately.

Reckon Dimma would be sending Mick Malthouse roses chocolates ATM.

Reckon you're spot on re Dimma and Mick GW.

 

[tigergollywog]

ever seen the pin on a highlift jack (a big ratchet) shear?

 

[tigersnake]

ever seen the pin on a highlift jack (a big ratchet) shear?

yeah. Thought we'd go back a couple of notches, not this many. Thought we'd just miss the 8 before having a crack next year. Have to say, the problems i saw then are still the same ones, they are just worse than i thought. Not that I thought it was any big rocket science discovery or anything.

 

[Dyer'ere]

FWIW I had a lot of confidence in Dimma at the end of last year, even though I saw our early departure from the finals as a failure of football values. (A ruck must never allow himself to be slaughtered like Maric did that day. A quality mid could never allow Bryce Gibbs ten clearances.)

Sure, there were questions around our playing of injured personnel. But I was satisfied that Hardwick was going to address these obvious flaws.

Instead he played a bunch of tin-men whenever they could muster a canter - Cotchin, King, Deledio, Jackson, Maric. And he restructured the forward line around Tyrone Vickery and then glibbed his way through press conferences (that he was far too important for) after Vickery did not take front position for months. And Jack moped on a wing.

Vickery was dropped then promoted on the back of *smile*. Jack was lost in triple teams. And then bludged or played Ibrahimovic. If we sent it in nobody was there to get it.

In the Dreamtime of 2014 we played exactly as we did in 2013. Jobe Watson ran riot but no Richmond player went after him. Trent Cotchin didn't because of the awesome mystery of Damian Hardwick's gameplan delusion. Unchanged. Help me out here. Even if you can't play and you see their best player going apeshit (again) don't you go after him? The coach stopped this happening.

Hardwick let our football standards (tighten up when you're getting a hiding, play in front, chase, shepherd, block) slide to bottom four class this year.

He did not realise how wrong he'd got it until the season was over. Selection felt committeed. Management had lost faith in him. Words, words. When we finally began to play some honest football the season was over.

Dan Richardson is new in his job. He has to sack Blair Hartley and Francis Jackson. And, when the right coach is available, Damian Hardwick.

Ratchets have limits.

 

[Scoop]

I am all for calm and controlled growth and backing the coach that this year is outlier in the grand scheme of things.

But I am with Dyer, one of Francis Jackson or Blair Hartley must go. Jackson may get the reprieve if Hartley goes to Brisbane but the list that has been built, has major flaws and both men have had long enough to change them. The re-treads have got us so far, the picks beyond the first round are terrible. Both wear blame,

But there has to be some blood.

 

[tigertime2]

I am all for calm and controlled growth and backing the coach that this year is outlier in the grand scheme of things.

But I am with Dyer, one of Francis Jackson or Blair Hartley must go. Jackson may get the reprieve if Hartley goes to Brisbane but the list that has been built, has major flaws and both men have had long enough to change them. The re-treads have got us so far, the picks beyond the first round are terrible. Both wear blame,

But there has to be some blood.

Good point Scoop. Depends if the club has bought the line that "Expansion clubs have had a monopoly on the draft" if the club believe this, then I cant see too much changing until the end of next year.

 

[Scoop]

Good point Scoop. Depends if the club has bought the line that "Expansion clubs have had a monopoly on the draft" if the club believe this, then I cant see too much changing until the end of next year.

If the club take that approach, it's a cop out. The flaws in the list aren't because of the monopoly of draft picks, it's the type of players we picked. We still don't have midfield depth, we still lack for pace and we still lack for rucks. If our list had enough of the right types but thy weren't good enough that would be ok. But we still lack in so many areas. That's list building.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Losing two experienced assistants and then not adequately replacing them wasn't exactly the best line of thinking, either.

 

[btoz_01]

Losing two experienced assistants and then not adequately replacing them wasn't exactly the best line of thinking, either.

IMO if Dimm as is so reliant on his assistants to get him over the line. Then he should be an assistant and one of the assistants should be head coach

 

[Brodders17]

Losing two experienced assistants and then not adequately replacing them wasn't exactly the best line of thinking, either.

Campbell was not an assistant coach last year.

 

[buenavista]

I am all for calm and controlled growth and backing the coach that this year is outlier in the grand scheme of things.

But I am with Dyer, one of Francis Jackson or Blair Hartley must go. Jackson may get the reprieve if Hartley goes to Brisbane but the list that has been built, has major flaws and both men have had long enough to change them. The re-treads have got us so far, the picks beyond the first round are terrible. Both wear blame,

But there has to be some blood.

I asked this on another post but nobody ventured a response, so I will try again here.

Does anyone really know how recruiting decisions are made at RFC? I read so many comments on here that our bad recruiting is Dimma's fault, Hartley's fault, FJ's fault and how one or all of them have to go. I have also read about differentiation of Dimma's boys, Hartley's boys and FJ's boys. FFS who does what? Who do I blame!?

 

[CarnTheTiges]

IMO if Dimm as is so reliant on his assistants to get him over the line. Then he should be an assistant and one of the assistants should be head coach

I actually think he'd make a good assistant, but there's no one currently at the club who would be a decent head coach.