The development of our young players(or lack of)

[Tango]

wallace has just slotted into the richmond way of life

poor performances on the field can be covered by *smile* weak excuses and spin
our past coaches have used this strategy
our current coach does
our senior players have used it for 10 years
our junior players are learning the art

 

[Tigers of Old]

Tigers of Old really ought to spend more time reading and blindly accepting your posts, Benny. ;D

:cutelaugh I'm just in admiration for your ability to stay relatively positive against the tide jack. I wish I could feel the same way. It's challenging.

I reckon the psychlogy is at the heart of it. Which supporters do you suppose are the most emotional about Terry's performance? The ones who thought the appointment was disastrous at the time or the ones who felt baseless euphoria at a decision which later on proved to be disastrous?

I'm on the record here as never wanting Terry Wallace in the first place, primarily because I didn't think the way he structured his side at the Bullies was one which would ever win a premiership. Terry is too clever by half but has difficulty in getting his sides to nail down some of the basics. In Wallace's plans there is not enough emphasis on bread and butter footy.

I also thought that outside the first two full seasons at the Bullies his results started to get worse each year before he departed in difficult circumstances. Unfortunately we are seeing similar results here at the moment.

Emotional? Not so much about Wallace, he is just another in a long line, only really concerned about the club I care for so much.
I honestly wonder if we'll ever turn it around?

 

[Dyer'ere]

:cutelaugh I'm just in admiration for your ability to stay relatively positive against the tide jack. I wish I could feel the same way. It's challenging.

As you pointed out I couldn't do any of it without the help of my good friends hallucinogenic drugs.

I can guess that you weren't a Wallet man Oldster, as you're not going mental. ;D

What will happen is that we'll win six or more games this year. The youngsters will keep improving and it'll be all thank gawd we got that genius Wallace again.

And he'll be off with carte blanche to recruit all the skinny has-been flankers he wants and it will take another five years to restructure the list. Wallace sucks at structure. We have to get someone in place to set this up for us.

And the experienced players we've recruited have on the whole been absolutely awful We need someone to do this for us. Had a look a Melbourne's experienced recruits? Did Cameron do it? We know he's no good at juniors.

 

[the claw]

As you pointed out I couldn't do any of it without the help of my good friends hallucinogenic drugs.

I can guess that you weren't a Wallet man Oldster, as you're not going mental. ;D

What will happen is that we'll win six or more games this year. The youngsters will keep improving and it'll be all thank gawd we got that genius Wallace again.

And he'll be off with carte blanche to recruit all the skinny has-been flankers he wants and it will take another five years to restructure the list. Wallace sucks at structure. We have to get someone in place to set this up for us.

And the experienced players we've recruited have on the whole been absolutely awful We need someone to do this for us. Had a look a Melbourne's experienced recruits? Did Cameron do it? We know he's no good at juniors.

imo one word you mention is key to all our problems. that word being structure.

we should not be in full on rebuild mode not after 4 drafts but imo we are still there and need to be. i understand where your coming from but i dont think terence has done a lot to help himself in some very key areas.

for what its worth my opinion has always been that wallace was not the man to rebuild our list ive never considered him a list builder. not a good one anyway.

 

[Dyer'ere]

That's why we have to get a structure from somewhere other than the coach, clawmeister.

It's not like Terry Wallace's list bungles at Footscray were a secret. We should have already taken him out of the picture.

(FWIW I reckon his efforts to set up a backline and midfield at Richmond have been a bit better. It's just that he aint got much talent to play with.)

Anyways IMO the hysteria surrounding the we suck sentiments of the moment are far too likely to swing to Wallace is God after a few wins.

We've had a comparatively bright start to the season given how far behind we're coming from. Nice to watch a game where we win the clearances instead of being swept aside at them as we were during pretty much every game last year.

We may be bad but at least we're men*. And while the form of the team is only marginally improved on lat year, some of the individuals are coming on and this will show in team results soon.


*Men: For all their weaknesses it's very handy to have some of them on a football team IMO. We need a special department of recruiting men to replace the department of not recruiting them.

 

[UntamedTiger]

(FWIW I reckon his efforts to set up a backline and midfield at Richmond have been a bit better. It's just that he aint got much talent to play with.)

After 4 years in charge, with input into who comes to the club, who's fault is it? I am sure he is no bystander when the trade and draft comes along.

 

[Dyer'ere]

After 4 years in charge, with input into who comes to the club, who's fault is it? I am sure he is no bystander when the trade and draft comes along.

Well, that's a grey area, too, UT.

I'm inclined to accept what little scoop I can get on the matter. Pole-hack was Miller's. McMahon was Wallet's. Miller and Jackson (chiefly Jackson) pick the youngsters.

Wallet keeps his nose clean on the youngsters because he understands the process. And the consequences of meddling. Consequences like this: Miller will go; Wallet will stay for now.

 

[UntamedTiger]

Well, that's a grey area, too, UT.

I'm inclined to accept what little scoop I can get on the matter. Pole-hack was Miller's. McMahon was Wallet's. Miller and Jackson (chiefly Jackson) pick the youngsters.

Wallet keeps his nose clean on the youngsters because he understands the process. And the consequences of meddling. Consequences like this: Miller will go; Wallet will stay for now.

More knowledgable people than me have written that we have done quite well in the last two drafts. Yet we do not see them develop as kids do at other clubs. I see every year 1st year kids at other clubs play well and get better. Our seem to ge worse.

I have written elsewhere, that the young kids playing yesterday for both clubs , the confidence level and sureness were poles apart. The coaching groups could not be further apart also, as TW & Co show bugger all confidence in our kids. I saw late in the game Lids running through the middle, then stop go in circles, hanball, we turn it over and they score. In his 1st year he would have taken them on or kicked long and deep. That is what concerns me.

Cannot do a fair comparison, but based on what we can see and hear, TW cannot seem to inspire them. This is based on on field performances. I saw a few Coburg games last year, and Andy Colllins was brilliant with the kids. He gave them the big tasks and most responded. That is what I want to see at Richmond. These same kids that some are saying are not ready. When will they be ready? How are we to find out if they can play?

 

[jb03]

JD, why do you keep saying Lids is playing injured. I reckon he has been better than OK but you are just giving making further excuses.

 

[Dyer'ere]

JD, why do you keep saying Lids is playing injured. I reckon he has been better than OK but you are just giving making further excuses.

I believe that he had something, jb. In fact I'm certain. Lids is the slowest bloke on the park when the other side has the ball so you can't draw any conclusions from those moments.

But three times when he had the ball against Collingwood he went to power up and there was nothing there. Did you not see him run down from behind after he put the jets on? They just fizzed.

So in this instance I mentioned the injury for three reasons:

• To suggest that Deledio did well while carrying an injury and that Polo did not. To make a contrast and reinforce the case that maybe Polo had it coming.
  
• To see if I can flush out some facts from another observer- I'm expecting someone to say something like, yeah he got a corkie in the right quad in the last five minutes of the North game or he had a calf heavily strapped after the game.
  
• Because I can't believe that absolutely nobody else noticed and I'm looking for someone to prove that it's wrong.
  

Wotcha got?

As for excuses for him, he only needs his age. He's our best user these days by a long way. Our worst result is that he becomes one of the top one or two HBFs in the league.

If he improves his BWA the sky's the limit.

 

[Disco08]

It's 3 years and 3 games since the 2004 draft. I've done it before so I'm not going to do it again, but you can rattle off the names of any number of the best players whose progression during their first 3 years is a mirror image of the likes of Deledio and Tambling.

If you want to highlight the lack of development from years previous to 2004 you could make a very good case (obviously) but all you're doing now is speculating on a subject that is hard to speculate on. It seems like a lot of people scream out for the kids to be played but can't accept that they take time to become the players we want them to be (remember most footballers are in their prime from age 23-28) and also can't accept that while the kids are being played we're more than likely to lose far more games than we win, just as the Hawks did as they developed their kids.

 

[Willo]

It's 3 years and 3 games since the 2004 draft. I've done it before so I'm not going to do it again, but you can rattle off the names of any number of the best players whose progression during their first 3 years is a mirror image of the likes of Deledio and Tambling.

If you want to highlight the lack of development from years previous to 2004 you could make a very good case (obviously) but all you're doing now is speculating on a subject that is hard to speculate on. It seems like a lot of people scream out for the kids to be played but can't accept that they take time to become the players we want them to be (remember most footballers are in their prime from age 23-28) and also can't accept that while the kids are being played we're more than likely to lose far more games than we win, just as the Hawks did as they developed their kids.

I can accept all that Disco. I can even be patient and understanding if we lose while playing the kids. But it seems there are more oldies than kids in the team atm

 

[Tigers of Old]

I believe that he had something, jb. In fact I'm certain. Lids is the slowest bloke on the park when the other side has the ball so you can't draw any conclusions from those moments.

Perhaps he's just not running hard enough Jack.
Never been a particularly hard worker when the other team has the footy.
He's had some seniors footballer's to learn this trick from.
We don't ask that from our players at Tigerland.

 

[Disco08]

I can accept all that Disco. I can even be patient and understanding if we lose while playing the kids. But it seems there are more oldies than kids in the team atm

Agreed, I'm not defending the list management or team selection. It's still predictable that we'd lose a lot of games given that our senior players are mediocre at best for the most part.

 

[Dyer'ere]

I s'pose I should start a thread, ToO. It's new material and not related to this one.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Agree Jack that Lids might have some sort of probs with a leg. He seemed to struggle outrunning opponents a couple of times. Or, it could be that he was flat out looking for an option that didn't exist and was just staying balanced and a sniff in front of his opponent rather than running madly into trouble.
Heard the same rumours about Chooka enjoying his rehab from the shoulder reco, so perhaps the foot up the clacker for poor performance was fully warranted.

 

[skylokreata]

It is a clear case that Terry is coaching in a self preservation type of way in order to limit the amount of on field damage on the scoreboard.
Terry talks about the age of our list and how young it is, yet when selection comes around the same OLD NAMES such as Tivendale and Hyde seem to be cropping up. So he is preferring to play the older players.
Another issue is the CHB CHF issue. We have youngsters in Schulz Hughes Riewoldt Rance
Polak. Now these boys are not going to find consistency nor a niche at the elite level if they do not play in the one position week after week. Case in point Hughes dropped after two games this season dropped after 4 or 5 games early last year especially the Geelong game when he was one of the better players with 3 goals in a 157 pt loss, but merely done to appease the rabbid fans and leeching media. How can this kid develop any confidence when he gets promoted and then dropped. The same can be said of Riewoldt. If these kids are the future then they need to be nurtured at the top level for the rest of the season. Otherwise coming in for 2 and then demoted to Coburg does nothing for their confidence and hinders these players development.
Tambling Deledio recruitment for better or worse we have them. Think Terry is playing both boys in wrong position. Why play Deledio in a fwd pocket when we can't hit a monolith like Richo on the chest. Wasted down there. Play him on the ball and let the skill he posesses shine like it did 4 yrs ago which got him as a no 1 draft selection. Same with Tambling throw him in the middle let him get the hard ball work his through traffic rather than chasing tail of attacking half back flankers twice his size in the forward pocket.
And what about guys like Rance playing seconds at Coburg. What are we shielding him from? He is 190 cm plus and has some bulk the kid can play at this level. He is the future of this footy club and he is playing there. It is a joke. Unless he is injured he should be at Richmond not Coburg 2nd but again this brief spiel goes back to my first point.
Terry caoching in a self preserving way. The club as we all no has had a grim 25 years with no success. All are feeling the pressure especially Terry and people keep on harping back to the stereotypical Tiger fan in their late 30's 40's 50's who were spoilt in terms of the premiership era they witnessed. It seems everybody in poer seems to not trust the kids to do the required job and hence these nothing selections of Hyde and Tivvers and White Polo getting limited runs on game day in last 2 weeks while tivvers plays more than 70% of the game. All done to limit damage on the scoreboard. Club needs to bite the bullet and just play these kids week in week out. Throw them in the deep end let them mature on a steep learning curve as they won't learn much from the senior players as most of them have been underperforming for years. Brown Richo Simmonds Bowden Hyde Tivvers perhaps it is time for them to move on rather than play beyond their use by date but b/c our results are poor anyway it won't matter and the microscope won't be on them as severley as lets say someone like Carey in his last yr in Adelaide who in an okay side was really struggling and it stood out like a sore thumb.
As for the nurturing to place "real faith" on these kids and believe in them will do wonders for the confidence and the development of these kids as well as your attitude. After all if you enjoy what you do you will do it better rather than go through the motions. You can argue with Hawthorn with the Franklin Roughead argument but we would still be sitting here lamenting their performances if we wnt with them b/c of the reasons aforementioned. We need to get the kids in simple as that and if you need more evidence look at these models.
Saints post Watson/ Blight prelim 04/05 after rebuild.
Hawks rebuilt after 05 barring injuries will be top 4 this year, and this after Wallace had the audacity to claim our list was better than theirs on his arrival. Wonder who believed it then and who believes that now?
Cats got rid of Hockings and co from 90's grannies failures in Bombers first 2 years flag.
Pies after 02/03 failures did the same will be around the mark again this year whether we like it or not.
So there is the answer put the faith in the kids it will get you a competitive side that will be in a position to challenge for honours come the right time of the season b/c the foundations of nurturing and faith have allowed these players to grow and prosper in a competition that is evening up but in our case we still seem to be falling further and further behind. I would rather watch the kids lose by 7-10 goals knowing they will learn something and be better for it in 24 months rather than watching an experienced side lose by the same margin and by the time these dinosaurs hang their boots up footy at the top level has passed these kids by not reaching their full potential b/c they have wallowed in a more inferior comp VFL for too long and have lost their confidence or have moved to greener pastures and are exposing their talents much to our dismay. What I want Terry to do is play the kids for the rest of the year at least then and only then can I believe that we are actually moving forward even though we may be lodsing games because playing guys like Tivvers Hyde perennial failures Bowden Brown Simmonds in the form they are in just to give you a few names will hurt us long term. The proof is in the Geelong's Port Adelaide and will be in Hawthorn blueprint in years to come. No point talking about it do it Terry don't want to see Hyde and Tivvers in the senior side again and want to see blokes like Polo White Riewoldt Edwards Rance hopefully Cotchin in the near future playing week in week out and at least giving us a crack at something positive.

 

[the claw]

JD, why do you keep saying Lids is playing injured. I reckon he has been better than OK but you are just giving making further excuses.

im inclined to agreejim bob. i thought deledio showed plenty of spark in the last quarter against north. if he has an injury i would say its from the collingwood game.

for what it is worth i think deledio has progressed steadily over the course of his career.

skylokreata thats one hell of a post well done i agree whole heartedly.