sheesh all that was there to see at the end of 2004 this is what has got me offside on this site with so many they just didnt want to see. whats disappointing is the club and wallace have repeated those mistakes since 2004. still no processes in place still no long term vision still stuffing up draft picks. when will we learn when will we acknowledge the mistakes and do something about never repeating them again.loto said:
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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
The disaster DRAFT years - 1999 to 2003
- Thread starter AstuteTiger
- Start date
WesternTiger said:
WT u hit it right on the head, you've understood the crust of my thread, the reason i started the thread was we didnt get enough from 1999 to 2003, just 2 players basically cogs and newman who are 26/27....i stated we needed another 8 to 10 from that era who along with the current crop would make us a powerful unit...we have made some stuff ups from 2004 to 2008 but they could've been offset by having another 8 to 10 players from the 1999 to 2003 era being about 24 to 27 yrs of age...
Ive spoken about the hawks, cats and dogs about having a good core of players prior to 2004....check out the saints too....
Saints in 2000 picked up Riewoldt and Kosi
In 2001 they picked up Luke ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Del Santo and Matt Maguire
2002 they picked up Goddard, Leigh fisher and Ferguson
2003 they picked up Raphael Clarke and Sam Fisher
What im trying to say is we needed 8 or 10 players from that era (1999 to 2003) to nurture the current crop...
Over the coming years the likes of Deledio, Cotchin, Foley, Riewoldt, Morton, Rance, Polo, (perhaps Tambling if he pulls his finger out), Thursty, McGuane, White, Collins, Connors, even Edwards & Raines, Vickery, Post, Browne, Nahas, maybe Gourdis, maybe Putt, maybe Graham, maybe Hislop and maybe Thompson...Some will make it some won’t but there’s a nucleus there to work with...
The jist of what im trying to articulate here is all the above are under 23, there the basis of the future, so over the next 3 or 4 years the new batch of recruits will join this lot above and form the nucleus of a strong side, unfortunately the above from 2004 to 2008 dont have the previous era of players from 1999 to 2003 to guide them but most of all be the main cattle before the calf’s grow and stand up by there own 2 feet....
The saints as u can see those players are the leader’s not their latest lot, anyway i think ive put my views and points across as best as possible...
Punxsutawney Phil said:
Don't know mate....all I know is Beck left after the 2004 draft (if I remember right).
I know Waldron was in the Football Development area but was in in charge of actual recruiting?
I thought he left that to Beck when he was there...? :don't know
either way we're in deep doggy-doo now! :-\
and if people look closely wallace has set us on a path to repeat those failings. regularly useing just 3 nd picks each yr sort of does this to ya, regularly taking recycled players sort of does it to ya. we always knew we would have to be patient but to fixthe problems we had we had to firstly take and then develop a shedload of kids from the 04 05 06 07 08 drafts hedging opur bets never was an option.and still isnt.WesternTiger said:
the claw said:
No argument there what so ever but to blame TW for the lack of 24-28 year old players like Caro did is just wrong.
the claw said:
the scary thing is claw, we have a nucleus from 04 to 08' as explained in my above post but gee i am some what scared if these guys arent developed properly, i had a thought of 2020 finals, gotta get that out of my head...just hope the new coach whoever that maybe developes these guys and not have them stagnate.
Also the next 3 drafts we need to recruit min 20 younsters just in the ND...I tell ya claw this draft being the last for 3 years we need at least 10 pics in the ND, need to trade out 3 or 4 players, retire some oldies, delist some younger ones who've been around 4 to 7 years and not improved...10 ND pics is not out of the question....
AstuteTiger said:
Agree AT. I think we also need to take 3 - 5 players in the last 2 rounds of the ND considering GC get the first 10 or so picks in the rookie draft.
WesternTiger said:
yep agree WT, the thoughts of RFC thinking of who to pick up as rookies might have to plan ahead and grab them earlier, IE: late in the ND and PSD too...
This coming draft is somewhat compromised but nothing like the next 3 years, they have excess of choosing 12 of the best 17 yr olds in this coming draft, and in the rookie draft this year GC have the first 5 pics...
whats scary is we have just 14 players who are 21 or under that includes 3 rookies. every other player on the list is currently 22 or older with the exception of nahas who turns 22 in december.AstuteTiger said:
those 14 juniors collins, connors, cotchin, edwards, hislop, jon, post, putt, rance, riewoldt, browne, gilligan, gourdis,its no stretch of the imagination to suggest half wont make it in fact we have to factor in a 35 to 45 percent fail rate this is what happens at most clubs.
imo we should have another 6 to 9 kids in this bracket right now.
we have 25 players in the 22 to 28 yr age bracket if we want to talk age or use it as an excuse i think we are barking up the wrong tree.. a comparison is geelong who have just 22players in the 22 thru 28 age bracket. they currently have just 2 30 yr olds though scarlett enters that bracket later this yr along with scarlett they have 29 yr olds ottens and wojcinski who dont turn 30 until next yr.. they currently have 20 21yo or younger.
na im all ready worried about the numbers at the bottom end of the age scale.
I dont have a problem picking up hislop at 58 and thompson at 42, attending to list needs...what i do have a problem with is not "replacing those pics" by way of receiving trade pics back for trading out some players IE: *smile* etc and even delisting petts and johnson for later pics...later pics then wouldve been used strictly on two or three 17 yr olds with a view to developing them with no pressure...
That 2008 draft is said to be the equal best draft along with 2001....
2001 having the best mids, 2008 having the best talls...
That 2008 draft is said to be the equal best draft along with 2001....
2001 having the best mids, 2008 having the best talls...
the claw said:
that is scary we have 14 under 21 and the cats 20 we must be placing ourselves for a flag :spin, and i agree with you that we havent utilised the ND as much as we shouldve and over the last 3 yrs we shouldve picked up another 6 or 7 players about the 17/18 yr old mark....
2007 u did harp on about using pic 19 on mcmahon (justified) when it should've been used on a 17 or 18 yr old...i was to happy to pick up cotchin, rance, morton and putt that i didnt over concern myself with pic 19 even though i said i totally agree with you claw at the time but due to being rapt with those other pics i wasnt overly fazed with mcmahon but now im spewing big time, sure he has run and carry but in the heat of battle he goes to water...I do remember u saying if they (RFC) really want mcmahon well tell him to go in the PSD and we'll get him for nothing, that shouldve been the policy, basically saying if we get u we get u if not so be it....
Look it would be easy to blame Wallace 200% for the predicament we find ourselves. But he had a chance to correct mistakes made in the Frawley era, but instead what he did was lay blame , i think 2 years in and not do anything for the next 3 drafts.
History has repeated itself over and over for the last 10 years (+).
No one has corrected it.
Not using the ND and Rookie drafts to the max will now cause more heartache for us suffering supporters. What this has done is placed us in a dangerous position with GC coming on board 2011.
Wallace was stubborn and years later (until our latest draft) insisting that his game plan was solid and was here to stay even though we could all see that it just wasnt working. Last 11 rounds last year showed us what can be achieved with a more simplistic game style and this year it has shown what a disaster it has been again. His insistence to recruit flankers for his style of play and not rebuild has seen us be in this situation 5 years in.
I believe in always building the spine first and the rest follows. If i am wrong please i stand to be corrected.
I can see further wilderness. Possibly another 4-5 lean years. And thats if our most talented kids stay long enough at the club or leave and ask to be traded for future success.
As i have alluded and others on this forum there are critical areas we need to address first or this cancer that has spread this club over 2 decades will infect our best group of kids and they will be lost to us.
We need to invest more resources in developing our best youngsters and future selections or our next coach we will be writing the same on this board as we have re Frawley and Wallace.
Whoever coaches the club will need to make an assessment, making some harsh judgement calls and make decisions on many players. Again i have mentioned that we need to have 8-10 picks and to utilise the rookie draft as best we can and are allowed.
No shortcuts or quick fixes anymore.
History has repeated itself over and over for the last 10 years (+).
No one has corrected it.
Not using the ND and Rookie drafts to the max will now cause more heartache for us suffering supporters. What this has done is placed us in a dangerous position with GC coming on board 2011.
Wallace was stubborn and years later (until our latest draft) insisting that his game plan was solid and was here to stay even though we could all see that it just wasnt working. Last 11 rounds last year showed us what can be achieved with a more simplistic game style and this year it has shown what a disaster it has been again. His insistence to recruit flankers for his style of play and not rebuild has seen us be in this situation 5 years in.
I believe in always building the spine first and the rest follows. If i am wrong please i stand to be corrected.
I can see further wilderness. Possibly another 4-5 lean years. And thats if our most talented kids stay long enough at the club or leave and ask to be traded for future success.
As i have alluded and others on this forum there are critical areas we need to address first or this cancer that has spread this club over 2 decades will infect our best group of kids and they will be lost to us.
We need to invest more resources in developing our best youngsters and future selections or our next coach we will be writing the same on this board as we have re Frawley and Wallace.
Whoever coaches the club will need to make an assessment, making some harsh judgement calls and make decisions on many players. Again i have mentioned that we need to have 8-10 picks and to utilise the rookie draft as best we can and are allowed.
No shortcuts or quick fixes anymore.
You only have to look at what again, they get mentioned becuase there process and planning is beyond other clubs at the minute, Hawthorn did at the back end of last years draft. 17 year old prospects, tuck them away for three years and let them grow. David Zaharakis was one that could have been pinched at the end of the 2007 draft and stashed away. I wanted no trading of picks last year and I would hope that this year we use every single pick. Even if they are after 70. Yet again Hawthorn are ahead of the curve planning for 2011 in 2008 while we look at 2009.
Yes, we are still paying the price for a 10 year drafting "black hole" - no other club has been saddled with such a poor record.
But what is becoming clearer is the inability to make hard decisions on players early on in Terry's tenure. That it took four years to make a decision on Tivendale is absurd. Others include the usual suspects: Gaspar and Kellaway, Pettifer etc.
Keeping these list cloggers rather than making Clarkson-esque decisions on our senior group had a knock-on effect of letting guys like Rodan go for nothing (who, for all his faults, was still young and would probably be handy in the midfield right now).
But what is becoming clearer is the inability to make hard decisions on players early on in Terry's tenure. That it took four years to make a decision on Tivendale is absurd. Others include the usual suspects: Gaspar and Kellaway, Pettifer etc.
Keeping these list cloggers rather than making Clarkson-esque decisions on our senior group had a knock-on effect of letting guys like Rodan go for nothing (who, for all his faults, was still young and would probably be handy in the midfield right now).
Wasn't White taken at 15 or 16? ,i thought Mark was taken at 40?mopsy fraser said:
What was the storie with White he never played a game did he?
One things for certain...we will have a mass cleanout at seasons end, and should end up with a decent amount of picks in this years draft, similar to Freo in last years draft.
Who may go??
Richo
Petts
Cogs (depending on how he goes this year)
Bowden
Brown
Cousins (again depending how he goes with form and hammies)
Hughes (depends on form)
Johnson
May be other rookies and such.
If most or all of the above players go, it will leave us with not only heaps of spots available on the list, but also a huge amount of $$$ in the cap.
The problem is that the majority of picks will be late in the draft, unless if some high profile trades are made for higher picks during trade week.
We will still be in a better position with a younger list compared to this year.
Who may go??
Richo
Petts
Cogs (depending on how he goes this year)
Bowden
Brown
Cousins (again depending how he goes with form and hammies)
Hughes (depends on form)
Johnson
May be other rookies and such.
If most or all of the above players go, it will leave us with not only heaps of spots available on the list, but also a huge amount of $$$ in the cap.
The problem is that the majority of picks will be late in the draft, unless if some high profile trades are made for higher picks during trade week.
We will still be in a better position with a younger list compared to this year.
White played a game or two - he was quick but ordinary and didn't make it.mtench said:
Pick 40 sounds about right. I'm pretty sure 1998 was the genius draft where we traded pick 8 for Craig Biddiscome and pick 20-something for Rory Hilton. Those picks ended up being Jude Bolton and David Wodjinski - who would be pretty handy even now.
Just shows how a poor decision can still affect your list for10 years - Of course we have felt the full wrath of "footy karma" in that pretty much every pick we have traded has become a good player, for another club.
Several clubs - notably Adelaide and Sydney - have demonstrated that you don't need a heavy reliance on recruiting. Give them some 18 - 20 year olds and they'll back themselves to develop footballers.
We have not been able to do this. Bling, Patto, Meyer and Lids are great examples. Polo was as good three years ago as he is today.
I had hoped White, JON and Jacko would take big steps last year. They took very small steps.
While I don't absolve our recruiters, I believe our bigger failing is in turning a kid into a footballer. On the surface, King & McRae seem to be the the right types, but we have clearly got something very wrong. Skill and confidence are very tightly coupled. We appear to have neither at the moment.
I have read a couple of great posts (Waiting's, comes to mind) which included discussion of substantial initiatives (eg Kokoda, hot coals) to help define a playing group. Even though I played team sports at a modest levels, I knew that these activities created a strong bond between teammates. Perhaps this bond helps to develop confidence in individuals.
Overall, while I have been a supporter of Wallace for several years, the buck must stop with him. He has had enough influence over the process over the years to have made a difference to the footy club if he was good enough. Whether it be demanding the appropriate skills/qualities to our recruiters, or in transforming good young footballers into good mature footballers.
It hurts to see Barham getting 28 possessions in his first game. We have not been able to manufacture this type of debut since Lids - and that was hardly a surprise.
We have not been able to do this. Bling, Patto, Meyer and Lids are great examples. Polo was as good three years ago as he is today.
I had hoped White, JON and Jacko would take big steps last year. They took very small steps.
While I don't absolve our recruiters, I believe our bigger failing is in turning a kid into a footballer. On the surface, King & McRae seem to be the the right types, but we have clearly got something very wrong. Skill and confidence are very tightly coupled. We appear to have neither at the moment.
I have read a couple of great posts (Waiting's, comes to mind) which included discussion of substantial initiatives (eg Kokoda, hot coals) to help define a playing group. Even though I played team sports at a modest levels, I knew that these activities created a strong bond between teammates. Perhaps this bond helps to develop confidence in individuals.
Overall, while I have been a supporter of Wallace for several years, the buck must stop with him. He has had enough influence over the process over the years to have made a difference to the footy club if he was good enough. Whether it be demanding the appropriate skills/qualities to our recruiters, or in transforming good young footballers into good mature footballers.
It hurts to see Barham getting 28 possessions in his first game. We have not been able to manufacture this type of debut since Lids - and that was hardly a surprise.