The Lesson that Geelong might have for the Tigers.

[pahoffm]

I don't think this thought of Phantom has anything to do with Geelong.

Craig Bradley, KB, Robbie Flower and others during the 80's and 90's ran strongly for more than 5 years.

KB ran for close to 20yrs!!!

Big difference is the intensity of the running today compared to KB's time is chalk & cheese.

So why does Phantom use Wood as an example ?

Wood has nothing to do with the focus of what I'm talking about. Bryan Wood just happened to kick a fantastic goal in the first half of a game where the Tigers were leading by 8 goals at half time and lost. It just so happened that game coincided with a general decline in the Tiger machine. In that same season there was also the game again Hawthorn where the Tiges kicked 2.18 for the game. As I recall, the 2 goals were kicked in the last quarter. Again, another symptom of a team in decline.

What was clear about Geelong's game this weekend was that they led early by a large margin, and they were certainly keyed up for a win, but failed to run out the game.
If they hadn't got into the game at all, one could blame lack of focus. But they led by a large margin at half time so, to me, they just didn't have the legs.
And they haven't had the legs for most of the season.
My guess, and its only my guess, is that those legs might be getting a bit weary.

 

[Rayzorwire]

IMO, our future midfield is not doing a lot of 'hard running' at this stage. Our young up and comers are being played on flanks for the majority of games, being given limited game time, or being rotated through the reserves.

This is why Foley is getting limited game time, Deledio and Tambling are used sparingly in the centre, Polo is playing largely outside the centre in tagging/negating roles, Hyde is being groomed to play part time on a forward flank and proving a surprise (while providing genuine hard run also), Raines is playing in defense, Krakouer is obviously as valuable roving up forward and gets significant time there, Myer is playing bit parts, JON is playing at Coburg, White has spent most of his time at the club there, Hartigan is also getting rests in the reserves...the only exception I can think of is Workhorse Coughlan, and we've obviously taken the gamble that he'll be able to take the punishment and still be able to contribute as an inside mid long term.

Who exactly are we 'burning out' Phantom? IMO the future midfield is being handled in expert fashion with kid gloves and both eyes firmly on the future.

Tuck? He thrives like a working cattle dog in the centre IMO.
Tivendale? Not a crucial part of a 2008 premiership team IMO.
Johnson? He's arguably well into his veteran years already IMO.

 

[pahoffm]

Who exactly are we 'burning out' Phantom? IMO the future midfield is being handled in expert fashion with kid gloves and both eyes firmly on the future.

Didn't say we were burning out anyone.

My focus was on Geelong, their problems, and what we can learn from their problems/mistakes.
Richmond has a young list and it will be crucial to all of our hopes the way that our boys develop.

A person who takes no heed of the mistakes of others ends up making the same mistakes.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Who exactly are we 'burning out' Phantom? IMO the future midfield is being handled in expert fashion with kid gloves and both eyes firmly on the future.

Didn't say we were burning out anyone.

My focus was on Geelong, their problems, and what we can learn from their problems/mistakes.
Richmond has a young list and it will be crucial to all of our hopes the way that our boys develop.

A person who takes no heed of the mistakes of others ends up making the same mistakes.

Fair enough Phantom - I'm just really impressed with how well we're doing in this regard...showing good patience (unlike Frawley throwing Cogs on the ball full time straight away for example - imagine if he'd had Deledio!)...building the young midfielder's up strong, skilled and seasoned (away from the hard grind) ready for the tilt at a flag which is to come.

In hindsight, I see your point is focused very much on rebuilding strategy...arguably Geelong *seemed* to gain a lot (short term) by trading/delisting seasoned midfielders and replacing them immediately by way of throwing young talent straight into the fray...now 4-5 years down the track these youngsters carry wear, tear and ageing beyond their years. It's a good point IMO, and yes, there is something to be learned from it IMO.

 

[casper68]

phantom l enjoy reading most of your posts but l cant agree with your 5 years of running.if it is true when does the 5 years start most 22 year olds probably have been running hard for 10 years playing footy and other sports l know as a teenager l played sport 6 days a week and played with friends when l wasnt playing team sports

 

[TigerMasochist]

And I thought we were supposedly short of KPP. Now all of a sudden we don't have enough running midfielders and they are all going to burn out in five years.
Most players take three completed seasons to develop their bodies enough to stand up to the rigours of AFL so by the time they reach 22yo they should be capable of playing as core senior footballers, they get six or seven years at about their peak and another two maybe three years where experience at the game helps to cover their physical decline into retirement.
There is a constant rotation pattern that all clubs have to develop players regardless of the positions they play.

Geelongs problems haven't stemmed from their runners being burnt out all of a sudden, but from bringing a bunch of key senior players into the side without the required fitness and form base.
Players like King, Harley, Donut, Johnson, etc. have had bugger all preseason or match form to go on. Throw in the fact that they don't have a genuine forward structure, relying on Mooney and Kingsley as the keys and they are being found out big time.

 

[feisty tige]

IMO Geelong's current problem is between the ears (NAB Curse)

Although, if anyone looks larger than life, surely it is Ottens, he looks huge !

 

[tigersforever06]

I don't think this thought of Phantom has anything to do with Geelong.

Craig Bradley, KB, Robbie Flower and others during the 80's and 90's ran strongly for more than 5 years.

But did they travel up to 17kms per game??

Because of flooding and counter attack footy, even forwards find themsevles on the wing.  How many times does pettifer get the ball at half back even

Unfountaley the game has changed and things like how much running a player has in them over their carreers is also changing

 

[TigerMasochist]

So what age do the elite international power sprinters and distance runners reach their peaks and how long do they last for.
Would think that most sprinters would hit their straps between the ages of twenty two up to thirty and the distance runners about twenty four up to thirty five. With quite a few years of junior development beforehand.

 

[pahoffm]

phantom l enjoy reading most of your posts but l cant agree with your 5 years of running.if it is true when does the 5 years start most 22 year olds probably have been running hard for 10 years playing footy and other sports l know as a teenager l played sport 6 days a week and played with friends when l wasnt playing team sports

With respect, there is a big difference between hard running as a junior, and hard running as an AFL senior.

A good example is Dale Thomas. 3 years as a ruckrover at Gippsland he coped with fairly easily. Suddenly, an immediate move into senior AFL footy, and after 8 games he's stuffed.

Big difference between junior and senior footy.

Thomas is yet to do any REAL hard running. His time will come in about 2 or 3 years time. 2009/2010, Thomas will have developed his body sufficiently to do some REAL hard running.
The test will be how Malthouse eases him into this without causing wear and tear.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

I think the Crows are a perfect example as a counter arguement Phanto in regards to the cats Phanto

 

[pahoffm]

I think the Crows are a perfect example as a counter arguement Phanto in regards to the cats Phanto

At first glance it may seem that Adelaide may run counter to this, but have a closer look at Adelaide.

Ricciuto now sits most of the time in the forward line, with an occassional run on the ball.
McLeod only plays half a game on the ball.
Goodwin is much like Kane Johnson, he picks up alot of possessions without doing much hard running.
I'd consider Edwards an exception to the rule, excellent footballer.
Thompson, Johncock, Doughty & Reilly have only been running hard for 2, maybe 3 years.

Neil Craig, with the help of Hockey Olympians Rick Charlesworth & Charlie Walsh, would be right on top of player management and rotations.
I remember when Walsh played hockey for Australia. He was very very good.

 

[Hayfever]

I think the Crows are a perfect example as a counter arguement Phanto in regards to the cats Phanto

At first glance it may seem that Adelaide may run counter to this, but have a closer look at Adelaide.

Ricciuto now sits most of the time in the forward line, with an occassional run on the ball.
McLeod only plays half a game on the ball.
Goodwin is much like Kane Johnson, he picks up alot of possessions without doing much hard running.
I'd consider Edwards an exception to the rule, excellent footballer.
Thompson, Johncock, Doughty & Reilly have only been running hard for 2, maybe 3 years.

Neil Craig, with the help of Hockey Olympians Rick Charlesworth & Charlie Walsh, would be right on top of player management and rotations.
I remember when Walsh played hockey for Australia. He was very very good.

Used to get on his bike a lot though Phanto  :cutelaugh

 

[johnson2richo2003]

I think the Crows are a perfect example as a counter arguement Phanto in regards to the cats Phanto

At first glance it may seem that Adelaide may run counter to this, but have a closer look at Adelaide.

Ricciuto now sits most of the time in the forward line, with an occassional run on the ball.
McLeod only plays half a game on the ball.
Goodwin is much like Kane Johnson, he picks up alot of possessions without doing much hard running.
I'd consider Edwards an exception to the rule, excellent footballer.
Thompson, Johncock, Doughty & Reilly have only been running hard for 2, maybe 3 years.

Neil Craig, with the help of Hockey Olympians Rick Charlesworth & Charlie Walsh, would be right on top of player management and rotations.
I remember when Walsh played hockey for Australia. He was very very good.

Fair point Phanto but couldnt you say that 75% of draftee,s are Midfeild types so therefore in 5yrs time we will have added 15 players to the list who can play midfeild with perhaps roughly 10 midfeilders gone over the same period?
A net gain of 5 which adds depth and rotation.

 

[pahoffm]

I think the Crows are a perfect example as a counter arguement Phanto in regards to the cats Phanto

At first glance it may seem that Adelaide may run counter to this, but have a closer look at Adelaide.

Ricciuto now sits most of the time in the forward line, with an occassional run on the ball.
McLeod only plays half a game on the ball.
Goodwin is much like Kane Johnson, he picks up alot of possessions without doing much hard running.
I'd consider Edwards an exception to the rule, excellent footballer.
Thompson, Johncock, Doughty & Reilly have only been running hard for 2, maybe 3 years.

Neil Craig, with the help of Hockey Olympians Rick Charlesworth & Charlie Walsh, would be right on top of player management and rotations.
I remember when Walsh played hockey for Australia. He was very very good.

Fair point Phanto but couldnt you say that 75% of draftee,s are Midfeild types so therefore in 5yrs time we will have added 15 players to the list who can play midfeild with perhaps roughly 10 midfeilders gone over the same period?
A net gain of 5 which adds depth and rotation.

One would hope that would be the case.
If things progress as they should, then it happens naturally.
Just remember it becomes harder as the list gets better to delist players.
Also, there becomes a tendency to redraft marginal players rather than recruiting and developing new juniors.
These are the pressures that the football dept will come under over the next few years.
How they overcome these issues will determine the Tigers' fortunes.

 

[TOT70]

Interesting thread-except that I would think Geelong have a different lesson to teach us. When I look at their midfield group, I see quite a few footballers who are hard at the ball but slow as a wet week, Ling, Kelly, Bartels, both Johnsons, Chapman, Enright, Josh Hunt, the list goes on.

They also have many, many talls on their list but again most are slow, lumbering types like Ottens, King, Playfair, etc. Mooney and Scarlett are their most mobile big men. Their quick runners are Tenace and Wojcinski, that is about it. Injury is playing some role in this atm.

My view is that they recruited with a particular game plan in mind, specifically the old Sheedy game plan that Bomber played most of his career under. Get the big bodies in and hit everyone harder than they hit you.

Most coaches are now playing possession football and avoiding contests like the plague-leaving Geelong with huge firepower but little opportunity to use it. They are too slow to do any real damage in modern footy. They are vulnerable to pace and their opponents are not afraid to use it against them.

Josh Hunt on Tambling? They were lucky Judd was out-he would have killed them. As it was, they had very little counter to players like Kerr, Rosa, Nicoski and Embley.

Forget about height and strength. It is now about pace and skill.

 

[Tango]

spot on TOT70 i couldnt agree more..... :clap

the same thing that cost the cats the game cost us the game against freo
we ran out of puff, stopped running to make space and had to rely on kicking to a contest in the last half of the qtr

we had no richo to take a contested mark and couldnt run it out of our own back yard in the end - same as the cats

the loss of richo - marking (not goal kicking) hurt us badly in the last qtr
the loss of lids - speed and run hurt us
the loss of kraka - midfield rotation and tackling hurt us

we probably ran out of puff about 10 minutes too early, thats about 1 or 2 runners short