The TW / RFC support thread.

[the claw]

By the end of Wallace's 5 year reign we will add it together with the Spud term and call it "the lost decade". When will you blindly loyal fools wake up to the fact that the opposition have improved both in absolute and relative terms better than us? Look at North Melbourne FFS !, No coach (according to Carey) no players, no home ground, training facilities etc etc.

Believe Wallace's 2011. Believe the crap that by being bad this year we are actually better.
Fact ,,, Richo retires soon, Brown will be gorn, the hated J Bowden I could go on.... oh hang on Coburg are going all right so all is saved........................

This is Richmond's worst year in history , get real and ask yourself why, oh and start a thread bagging Sheedy, but by golly the b* , can beat Adelaide which we have rarely done.

Sorry Tiges just not good enough, and I can remember the early sixties and no, it will not turn around in one season or one draft pick.

I join the darkside as of tonite

The darkside hey!

Well the two darkest of the dark - craig and Claw actually think TW is finally on the right track.

Maybe craig and Claw are now brightsiders :don't know

i dont know about that western but i will say it would be absolute folly to axe wallace at this stage of his tenure.give him his 5 yrs it was always going to take at least that long. i can put up with mistakes as long as they are learnt from making mistakes makes you a wiser and smarter person.

like a lot here i have been bitterly disappointed with recruiting and list management get these areas right and we will automatically start to improve.

tw needed to build a spine and get some depth in these areas. he needed to get some young ruckmen into the system as soon as he came. he virtually treated these areas as after thoughts.

the most puzzling part of wallaces rhetoric is he says he wanted some success short term to reward the senior players. he had an opporunity to draft some big bodied ready to go talented kids to help those seniors get some success, but instead went with in the main skinny speculative picks who would have little impact for 3 or 4 yrs.

we lack in lots of areas kpp. ruckmen. onballers who can win ball probably the most telling big bodies and foot skills. we lack smart instinctive footballers and mongrel and it goes on and on. on match days its the lack of structure footskills and lack of size that kills us.the trouble is you cant fix these areas if you dont draft the right types to fix them.

one area where we can improve what we have is weights. sack those running this area they have been terrible for as long as i can remember and get some people in there who will get some size into our players. anyway im diverting from the thread wallace should stay but he is open to criticism and if he now goes on and makes the same mistakes over, his head will be for the chopping block.

 

[RROFO]

How many times have we finished 9th ?

I don't want to get dragged into this argument, but I opened my mouth in the first place so I have no one to blame but myself.

On the Sheedy thing I will say that I don't believe the guy is a long term solution and I don't think we are looking for a quick fix since quick fixes don't work, we have seen that before.

Sheedy's 68 I believe. I know the guy says he wants to keep coaching but he says he only wants to coach for another 2 or 3 years. It takes a hell of a long time to get your processes in play and turn the ship in the direction you want it to go, even for Sheedy.

If he were to stay for 5 years he will probably only just start to see the kind of results that people are demanding. Our young players will then be mature enough to be able to compete at the required level. How old will he be then? 73! If he were to coach for another 10 he would be 78. How old is too old?

I have nothing against older working people, hell I'm getting there myself, but I feel any contribution Sheedy could give would be best behind the scenes in an administrative role. He has an absolute wealth of experience and would be valuable at the club. He had his chance to coach us in 98 and HE chose not to. Time to move along.

Even so we have a coach who is in his 3rd year of 5 year plan. 5 months ago everyone was quite happy with his performance. I feel it would be very short sighted to throw away those 3 years because the going is a bit rough at the moment. OK a lot rough.

Give him the 5 years, at the end of it then make a decision. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water and set the process back another 3 years. If what has been set in place will ultimately work then stopping it now would be very nonconstructive. Be part of the solution not the problem. The only thing all this talk is doing is causing a distraction to those who are trying to get the job done and, for better or worse, they are the ONLY people in a position to do the job.

I know it's been 25 years and we are witnessing the worst performance from a Richmond team in history but sometimes you have to suffer to get the job done. I'm suffering too but I am also willing to wait and see what happens.

 

[Djevv]

How many times have we finished 9th ?

I know it's been 25 years and we are witnessing the worst performance from a Richmond team in history but sometimes you have to suffer to get the job done. I'm suffering too but I am also willing to wait and see what happens.

Perhaps the 9th finishes and 25 years of struggling to be mid-table have cost the club. From a list perspective we really NEED to be down at the foot of the ladder. Unless we have the profile and an open chequebook, it is highly unlikely that we will snare the Judds and Pavlichs of the competition.

Given that we have a membership of over 30K, this really is an opportune time for us to be down. However, I suspect that next year we will struggle to achieve this feat again.

I did a spreadsheet of the list a while back trying to model the list changes over a few years. I got to 2009. At this point the age stucture of our list was showing that we would be just becoming competitive. Therefore I was not paticularly surprised at TWs comments at the start of the year.

Few years of pain left yet folks , regardless of the coach.

 

[Tigers of Old]

I think the 30,000 members that signed up expected finals.

Not one win for the year and a wooden spoon.

I actually bought my membership because I love my club. If you want guarantees, maybe you should just by an AFL or Medallion Club membership and try to not let the door hit your a$$ on the way out.

Good for you '74, it's a valid point you make.
The club's survival & hopeful improvement relies on the unconditional support of it's fans to buy memberships, so I won't take offence to the heavy handedness of your post. 8)

However if it was any other business, you'd be entitled to a refund based on the likes of our captain's promises in this thread & the spin we were fed all pre-season (except on the verge of it with the 2011 comment).

After finishing ninth in '06 'with a bullet', no doubt a large portion of the near record 30,000 members signed up with the hope and expectations(perhaps misguided) that we were on the verge of playing finals for the third time in 25 years.

So whilst as you correctly point out there are no guarantees about anything whether it's this year, next year or 2011, people should continue to support the club.
That is extremely important.

However Wallace said as much this week there are no guarantees about his job either.

Supporters expect improvement not wooden spoons.
Wallace wouldn't want to be on the same path next year or there will be yet another coaching change.
Like it or lump it.

 

[Jools]

Well done taraba, for starting this thread.

I didn't expect us to do quite this badly this year, but it certainly won't stop me buying my membership again next season.

 

[hellenictiger]

People forget at the end of last year and before this year started Walace said we where expected to make the finals or else we wuold be a failure.

He has made a backward step with the club and doesnt deserve a job, after creating the worst team in 10 years.

Who said we would stop buying memberships? Although as the paying public we deserve an opinion.

 

[hopper]

i dont know about that western but i will say it would be absolute folly to axe wallace at this stage of his tenure.give him his 5 yrs it was always going to take at least that long. i can put up with mistakes as long as they are learnt from making mistakes makes you a wiser and smarter person.

like a lot here i have been bitterly disappointed with recruiting and list management get these areas right and we will automatically start to improve.

tw needed to build a spine and get some depth in these areas. he needed to get some young ruckmen into the system as soon as he came. he virtually treated these areas as after thoughts.

the most puzzling part of wallaces rhetoric is he says he wanted some success short term to reward the senior players. he had an opporunity to draft some big bodied ready to go talented kids to help those seniors get some success, but instead went with in the main skinny speculative picks who would have little impact for 3 or 4 yrs.

we lack in lots of areas kpp. ruckmen. onballers who can win ball probably the most telling big bodies and foot skills. we lack smart instinctive footballers and mongrel and it goes on and on. on match days its the lack of structure footskills and lack of size that kills us.the trouble is you cant fix these areas if you dont draft the right types to fix them.

one area where we can improve what we have is weights. sack those running this area they have been terrible for as long as i can remember and get some people in there who will get some size into our players. anyway im diverting from the thread wallace should stay but he is open to criticism and if he now goes on and makes the same mistakes over, his head will be for the chopping block.

I've been trying to work out a way to best express my opinions on this debate, claw. I think you did it for me. Spot on.

That felt weird.

 

[WesternTiger]

People forget at the end of last year and before this year started Walace said we where expected to make the finals or else we wuold be a failure.
He has made a backward step with the club and doesnt deserve a job, after creating the worst team in 10 years.

Who said we would stop buying memberships? Although as the paying public we deserve an opinion.

Did he?

That certainly was NOT what the majority of the media read from TWs preseason presentation!

 

[IrockZ]

yeh thats maybe after he wised up and realised how much hard work was still needed

previous to the media presentation in pre season it was all about the "graph" which he loved using last year when we moved to 9th

tw knew this year was coming but it hit him a bit later than it shouldve

 

[WesternTiger]

yeh thats maybe after he wised up and realised how much hard work was still needed

previous to the media presentation in pre season it was all about the "graph" which he loved using last year when we moved to 9th

tw knew this year was coming but it hit him a bit later than it shouldve

Spot on there. From what King said preseason 2006 it was last year when they expect us to bottom out.

 

[Brettstigers]

What's the point of sacking a coach who is a professional? Everyone off the field is supporting him because they know that we are in the process of turning over at least 80% - 90% of the list. There will be less than 5 players (if that) from our current stocks who were recruited before Wallace arrived in 2004 and who will play in those 2011 finals.

 

[YinnarTiger]

How many times have we finished 9th ?

Sheedy's 68 I believe. I know the guy says he wants to keep coaching but he says he only wants to coach for another 2 or 3 years. It takes a hell of a long time to get your processes in play and turn the ship in the direction you want it to go, even for Sheedy.

If he were to stay for 5 years he will probably only just start to see the kind of results that people are demanding. Our young players will then be mature enough to be able to compete at the required level. How old will he be then? 73! If he were to coach for another 10 he would be 78. How old is too old?

That would make him 28 yo when he played his first season in 1967. 58 would be closer to the mark which is quite a good age IMHO.
I'm only stating this in support of mathematical accuracy. We should keep TW on.

 

[IrockZ]

yeh thats maybe after he wised up and realised how much hard work was still needed

previous to the media presentation in pre season it was all about the "graph" which he loved using last year when we moved to 9th

tw knew this year was coming but it hit him a bit later than it shouldve

Spot on there. From what King said preseason 2006 it was last year when they expect us to bottom out.

which is what shouldve happened

we picked up a few lucky wins like adeaide and essendon and then got those 3 cheapies at the end of the season, it set us back big time

 

[HKTiger]

T'

Good thread. At least some realism.

Some people have memories like goldfish.

What would have happened if we had had a season like this in 2005 ? We came off 2004 losing $2 million dollars. We had to win games in 2005 and 2006 just to turn the books around. This probably is the first season that we have been able to afford a losing season (for want of a better term) as the finances support it. How do you think TW feels about that ? Having to wait two years for financial stability before he can act.

And the other clubs that we get compared to either survive off AFL handouts or sell their souls interstate. Another issue that sets these boards alight.

The overall point being that you need to think through all the things that impact the RFC and see how Steve Wright, Terry, Greg and Gary navigate all of that. My view is, all things considered, they're doing the best they can in the circumstances and appear to be working assiduously to establishing a better framework and infrastructure for the future.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Perhaps the 9th finishes and 25 years of struggling to be mid-table have cost the club. From a list perspective we really NEED to be down at the foot of the ladder. Unless we have the profile and an open chequebook, it is highly unlikely that we will snare the Judds and Pavlichs of the competition.

I was under the impression that the salary cap was there to solve the problem of wealthy clubs dominating the competition. Last time I looked at the players CBA, the minimum payments to players was 92.5% of the salary cap. This means we have to pay our bunch of hacks 92.5% of the payments (minimum) that the successful clubs have to pay their bunch of champions. Not much of a difference. As far as player payments are concerned, we shouldn't need an "open chequebook".

Being at the foot of the ladder isn't going to increase the size of the chequebook, it will give us the best draft picks, which as has been pointed out many times before, have been wasted by the club. So what's the advantage of being at the bottom? From my perspective, the only good thing thing is we can't go any lower.

I'm not sure what you mean by not having the "profile". If the Judds and Pavlichs don't wish to play for Richmond because of a perceived lack of profile, then they are not welcome. I want players who are willing to give their all for the club no matter what. If players are in it for 'looks', then I don't want to know.

But this is a thread supporting Wallace and the Richmond Football club. I have said it before in other posts that I did not agree with the appointment of Wallace in the first place but now that he's here, I think he should be given every opportunity to fulfill his contract (and beyond if it's appropriate) by both the supporters and the club itself.

 

[bowden4president]

yeh thats maybe after he wised up and realised how much hard work was still needed

previous to the media presentation in pre season it was all about the "graph" which he loved using last year when we moved to 9th

tw knew this year was coming but it hit him a bit later than it shouldve

Spot on there. From what King said preseason 2006 it was last year when they expect us to bottom out.

which is what shouldve happened

we picked up a few lucky wins like adeaide and essendon and then got those 3 cheapies at the end of the season, it set us back big time

So we should have tanked???

You always play to win and it may have hurt us but you will never know

I will continue to support TW til the end of his contract and then see what happens!!

 

[TigerMasochist]

My biggest issue with Wallace is why has it taken him until the 3rd year of his contract to undertake this course of action?? Why is he now only starting to play kids and claim it will still take a while to come good? Why didn't he do this in his first year? We might well be on the way to being a much more competitive side if he had have started when he was supposed to? Why did he *smile* around so much in the first two years and recruit rejects and hacks like Graham, Flyspray Bowden and Kingsley?

And what's with the recruiting? Why do we continue to recruit skinny, brainless, unskilled duds with high draft picks? Why don't our recruits develop and muscle up like those at other clubs?

Wallace and Miller have made their own bed and must lie in it. They completely wasted the first two years and our now making pitiful excuses for unforgiveable mistakes. It's only fair and reasonable that the blowtorch be applied to them. It wouldn't be an issue if they took the correct path from the start.

With experienced senior guys like Gas, Chubba, Campbo, Staff, Chaffey etc finishing thats about 1000 games of senior experience lost to the side.
Add this to the turnover of guys like Flemwad, Nicholls, Weller, Morrison and others there's been massive changes to our list in the three years Plough has been here.
Apart from one mature age speculator each year, just to try and help development Plough has put mileage into heaps of kids.
By comparison to mature footballers nearly all 18 year old kids are skinny runts, they need five years to put on the required hard mature player mass.
Tuck and Pettifer were barely fringe players when Frawdley coached us they've matured into reasonable players and plenty of the kids drafted since Plough came to us have been brought along steadily without hammering them into the ground.
Kids like Raines, Deledio, Tambling, Foley, King, Howat, Jackson, Pattison have got miles in the legs and now Hughes, Reiwoldt, Connors, Edwards, Mcguane, Moore and so forth are getting games. There's still more kids finding their feet at Coburg, while some won't make it there's been a massive restructure of our list and they still have growing to do.
You seem to imply that Plough should have turned over the entire list of players in three years and replace them with super kids that are going to dominate the comp with just one or two seasons under the belt.
Perhaps the blowtorch would be more appropriately applied if you used it to torch your rubbish post.

Rubbish post hey? Do you think it's unreasonable to suggest that 3 years in to a 5 year plan we should have made some progress; not actually got worse. Um let's see, we won 4 games in 2004, we're likely going to win ONE in 2007. That's improvement is it? The game style is just as bad if not worse than it was back then; the skill level is worse, as hard as that is to believe considering how sh!thouse it was under Frawley.

Wallace was given a 5 year contract as most expected that's how long it would take for him to get this club to a position where it could make a serious assault. *smile*ing hell, we are miles away, STILL!! Why are we still so far away from it THREE years later?? Surely these are legitimate questions, not rubbish as the brightsided, and deluded might see it.

As for the kids, the only ones who have convinced me they have what it takes to play good AFL level football are Deledio and Foley. Edwards, Hughes and Riewoldt look OK and may have the class to go further. Connors has played only one game. The rest have HUGE question marks on them. We continue to be dogged by recruiting players with crap skill levels.

No, unfortunately the rubbish is the crap the club continues to dish up every year and the *smile* excuses that go with it.

Don't know if you read it or not Riddler, but somewhere in these threads there is one that discusses Martin Pikes comments regarding Carltons sacking of Pagan.
Pike says that Carltons list management had failed about three years earlier then most experts realised this was then exacerbated by the AFL penalising Carlton for cheating. Simply put Pagan copped a lame duck.
If you look at the Brisbane side of a few years back, it took about seven or eight years to build that from a rubbish list into the monster it became, it started when Walls was coaching them through Northey Merrett into Mathews.
The core of the Kangas side that Pagan coached came from the under 19's that he took to flags and were hopeless while schimma coached them.
Simple fact is our list was average at best when Spud started coaching us and after one flash year turned to crap in a big hurry with the help of some enlightened drafting.
Plough and Miller probably should have said less about trying to reward senior players with a chance at finals before their careers finished, but hey there was also a fairly large pissed off supporter base also wanted to hear some sort of good vibe to give them a little bit of feelgood.
Take a look at the amount of kids with less than fifty games playing at the moment, they're supposed to be learning the game under the support and coverage of a heap of players with 100/ 150/ 200 + games experience not trying to carry the team.
They're skinny because they're kids their skills let them down because they're inexperienced and under pressure, perceived and real because they don't have the protection of senior players that they need.
With more senior players going at the end of this year it means the kids will be under the pump again next year, the hard part for the club and the supporters will be giving thirty plus kids under the age of 24 to grow into a team.
There will be only a handfull of genuine senior players available to guide them.
Wallace was given five years because that was going to be the bare minimum required to get the list turned over and some proper development into them.
For the first time in ages it appears management have realised what was needed and I hope they have the nerve to see it through.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

Excellent post TM :clap :clap :clap :clap

 

[hptiger]

I agree good post TM, we have to have patience i know it hard after 20 something years, but Wallace is paying for bad list management, we just have to get our recruiting and devolpment departments to a higher level. We just always seem to be a a step behind, jeez i was 2 when we last won our last premiership, if i can wait so can everyone else.