The Vision Men -- Gale, Richardson, Hardwick, Hartley and Jackson | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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The Vision Men -- Gale, Richardson, Hardwick, Hartley and Jackson

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,493
7,817
They may well have a vision for our list, but at the moment I just can't see it.

The Hardwick extension. The Vickery reward. The Hampson debacle. The McDonagh disappearance. The Newman farce. The Miles Snub.

Has anyone seen Draft Day with Kevin Costner?

That's how I picture a room with these three guys debatin' the list (awesome film btw).

Not convinced they're all on the same page.
 

tommystigers

Don't Boo! It is hurtful to the inept and corrupt.
Oct 6, 2004
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2,354
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Enjoyed it immensely Cart-er.

So which one is Costner?
 

Mr Magic

The Centre of Perfection
Dec 7, 2006
2,575
1
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Carter said:
They may well have a vision for our list, but at the moment I just can't see it.

The Hardwick extension. The Vickery reward. The Hampson debacle. The McDonagh disappearance. The Newman farce. The Miles Snub.

Has anyone seen Draft Day with Kevin Costner?

That's how I picture a room with these three guys debatin' the list (awesome film btw).

Not convinced they're all on the same page.

The McDonagh disappearence would be a Match Committee and Coaches call, likewise the Newman and Miles calls. Hardwick has stated publicly that he just didn't think Miles would have that big an impact at senior level. The Hardwick extension would be a CEO and Board decision. Vickery extension i'm ok with. However, whoever made the recommendation to trade for Hampson and then approved a 3 year contract needs to be sacked! Up there with the McMahon trade and swapping Schulz for Fatty Farmer as the worst trading decisions in our history. Good clubs just don't make these type of mistakes.
 

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,493
7,817
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

tommystigers said:
Enjoyed it immensely Cart-er.

So which one is Costner?

Jackson?

The experienced, jaded old codger trying to get his team together despite the vested interests of head coach, etc.
 

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,493
7,817
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Mr Magic said:
The McDonagh disappearence would be a Match Committee and Coaches call, likewise the Newman and Miles calls. Hardwick has stated publicly that he just didn't think Miles would have that big an impact at senior level. The Hardwick extension would be a CEO and Board decision. Vickery extension i'm ok with. However, whoever made the recommendation to trade for Hampson and then approved a 3 year contract needs to be sacked! Up there with the McMahon trade and swapping Schulz for Fatty Farmer as the worst trading decisions in our history. Good clubs just don't make these type of mistakes.

yeah of course you're right but I just don't see a unified vision with all this. fair bit of chopping and changing going on in 2014.
 

Col.E.Kurtz

Tiger Legend
Apr 4, 2005
10,698
1
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

You are hitting a few different issues at once.To me the key question is our list management still strategic and linked to a long term vision of how we are going to get to a premiership?

Everyone is allowed one mistake, but the hammer trade was a ‘mare, he’s now our 3rd string ruck. The worst thing is that Hammer is playing exactly how he did for Carlton, this shouldn’t have been a surprise.
 

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,493
7,817
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Col.W.Kurtz said:
You are hitting a few differnt at once.

yeah that's true Colonel, I guess the vision thing should extend down from the board to all levels.

we will paying for some decisions for the next 2-3 years.

doesn't help when you need everything to go right for a genuine flag tilt.
 

TigerFlag2017

Tiger Legend
May 16, 2007
6,925
4,317
Carter said:
The Hardwick extension. The Vickery reward. The Hampson debacle. The McDonagh disappearance. The Newman farce. The Miles Snub.
I am struggling to understand your actual point. In order of controversy I would go:
1. Hampson
2. Miles snub
3. Newman extension

Are you suggesting Madonna is leaving, or just not being selected. If the latter I can handle it.

On Hardwick, Vickery, this year's selections - certainly I was angry mid-year, however I am prepared to give the club credit for turning it around mid season. Including Dimma. Pretty unique effort to achieve 8 wins after being 3-10.

But Hampson for me was the major strike, all others I can see both arguments. Major flop and reminds me of the Sanchez debacle. Only saving grace was it was much less costly and certainly can think of many other trades involving ruckman that have been much worse.
 
Jul 26, 2004
78,589
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www.redbubble.com
Blair (Moneyball) Hartley's current recycleds

Miles - Tick
Petterd - Tick
Chaplin - Tick
Grigg - Tick
Houli - Tick

Thomas - ok
Stephenson - ok

Hampson - cross
Adwards - cross
Banfield - cross
Knights - cross

Bit of a mixed bag.
Maric, Miles, Grigg & Houli have been real feathers in the cap.
Hampson the obvious clanger.
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,172
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I reckon Aadwards has given us more worth than Stephenson. But other than that I agree. Knights and banfield are still in play, as I guess is the Hampster
 

EJC

Tiger Rookie
Dec 1, 2010
253
4
Ballarat
Baloo said:
I reckon Aadwards has given us more worth than Stephenson. But other than that I agree. Knights and banfield are still in play, as I guess is the Hampster
We're all wise in hindsight but I was crying out for Big O to be selected in last year's final against Carlton. Poor Ivan was out on his feet after half-time and we were of course smashed to smithereens in the middle thereafter. As a skilled tap ruckman, Big O has been serviceable when called upon.
 

saigon tiger

Tiger Superstar
Jun 4, 2010
2,394
1,221
Tigers of Old said:
Blair (Moneyball) Hartley's current recycleds

Miles - Tick
Petterd - Tick
Chaplin - Tick
Grigg - Tick
Houli - Tick

Thomas - ok
Stephenson - ok

Hampson - cross
Adwards - cross
Banfield - cross
Knights - cross

Bit of a mixed bag.
Maric, Miles, Grigg & Houli have been real feathers in the cap.
Hampson the obvious clanger.

The question has to be asked are players like Grigg, Houli and Newman going to help take us to a premiership. Houli maybe but all list management, player retention, deleistings should be made with that as our number 1 priority.
 

tonemaster

Tiger Rookie
May 10, 2005
287
9
It's about what we gave up to get those players. For all those players, we basically gave up nothing whatsoever.

And I actually don't think Hampson is a failure. He actually played some good games. The problem is he can't play alongside Maric.

Newman's spot on the list basically means we have one less ROOKIE player and only half his salary is included in the cap. That to me is an absolute bargain. While I don't think he's played particularly well this year, he's definitely better than a rookie-listed player.
 

tigertime2

Our cup runneth over!
Mar 22, 2008
4,574
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Carter......wait until 7.30pm saturday...If Sydney beat us by more than 6 goals the last 8 weeks mean very little.
 

doherz

Tiger Superstar
Apr 24, 2004
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www.informtech.com.au
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Col.W.Kurtz said:
You are hitting a few different issues at once.To me the key question is our list management still strategic and linked to a long term vision of how we are going to get to a premiership?

Everyone is allowed one mistake, but the hammer trade was a ‘mare, he’s now our 3rd string ruck. The worst thing is that Hammer is playing exactly how he did for Carlton, this shouldn’t have been a surprise.
Anyone here unhappy with the rest of last years recruits?
Easy to pick fault, harder to give praise it seems.

Credit where credits due guys
 

Mappa

Tiger Superstar
Jul 3, 2009
1,916
6
Could we please have one week where we all support the team, the coaches, the recruiting staff, the boot studded, the administration, the orange boy and not ry and create a situation that probably doesn't exist. For one week, together as supporters with one mission a win over Sydney.
 

tigers80

Tiger Legend
Jul 7, 2004
7,568
1,426
Carter said:
They may well have a vision for our list, but at the moment I just can't see it.

The Hardwick extension. The Vickery reward. The Hampson debacle. The McDonagh disappearance. The Newman farce. The Miles Snub.

Has anyone seen Draft Day with Kevin Costner?

That's how I picture a room with these three guys debatin' the list (awesome film btw).

Not convinced they're all on the same page.

You really are wasting your talents on here, give BG a call I'm sure he needs an oracle on Team Richmond.
 

Filthy Tiger

Tiger Rookie
Jun 10, 2014
230
37
I would argue Choco is the one with the vision. The turn around in form is Choco's doing by bringing in the 'sweep the sheds' philosophy adhered to by the All Blacks.

"Morris said tapping into the culture of Rugby union’s powerhouse had been senior development coach Mark Williams’ idea — and the ­Tigers have not lost since."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl-new/steve-morris-says-richmonds-new-mantra-has-helped-tigers-soar-into-top-eight-and-potential-finals-appearance/story-fnlpeek0-1227036392140?nk=6c38954c60cd0e79aeb8c69f4c3a3177
 
B

Bill James

Guest
We seem to be talking about three issues: List Additons, Player Retention, and Selection

List Additions: I took the time and went through our list a couple of days ago paying particular attention to how we got players. For the most part I was very comfortable. For example players that I have been critical of this year:
Morris, we got him by giving pick 14 to GWS in exchange for pick 15, that's a great deal.
Grigg, we traded him for Andy Collins, great deal.
Houli, picked him up in the PSD, exactly what that's for
Newman, got him at pick 55 exactly where flankers should be taken fourth round where it all becomes a lottery.
Thomas, pick 42 in the Rookie Draft, that's a good deal if we get 20 games out of him and we would have if Miles hadn't come on so well.
Lloyd, pick 66 in the draft, again where speculative flankers should be picked up
Gordon, pick 50 in the draft, starting to get into the reliable return zone where picks on average can be expected to yield 50 games. For a 24yo this was only just fair value in my book.

The only player that looked like a bad deal at the time (as distinct from bad player)
Hampson, traded for pick 28, late second round picks on average return 80-100 game players. I don't think Hampson ever looked like he would give us 80-100 games so we paid too much.

List Retention
Do we keep players too long or do we turn them out too early. Its not hard to do the maths and work out how many players need to be turned over every year to ensure we have a good spread of positions and ages to maintain the list (its about 7). The specific keeps and cuts are little more complex and go to $, length of contract, insurance and subtle stuff like club morale.

Recent examples include
Rodan, good trade in my view, had a knee hadn't got his pace back and we had Krak and Tambling who looked better at the time.
Schulz, also a good trade, he had done little for us over many years, turns out it was a good trade for him and Port as well but doesn't mean it was a bad trade for us.
White, neutral trade, a three year deal would have been a stretch on his form, a two year deal would have been pretty easy. Never played this well for us, think he fits the Port game plan better than ours.
Newman, better than plenty on our list but may not be better than 22, its one year and whether or not its a good decision will depend on selection policy. Probably a low cost morale call.
McGuane, yep we forget the good cuts
Nahas, ditto
Thurston, ditto
Moore, probably kept him too long but was a team morale thing a bit like Coghlan


Selection
Personally I like a philosophy where its harder to get into the team than to get out. I think we perhaps err a little in rotating the journeymen into injury vacancies rather than trying the youngsters, eg not giving Miles a run but continually giving Thomas a go. But for the most part I like the concept that your first yellow sash has to be hard earned. If its hard earned it will be highly valued.


All in all I think the Vision men have done a pretty good job in the last 5 years.