The Vision Men -- Gale, Richardson, Hardwick, Hartley and Jackson | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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The Vision Men -- Gale, Richardson, Hardwick, Hartley and Jackson

spackler

Tiger Rookie
Jul 14, 2006
163
0
tonemaster said:
It's about what we gave up to get those players. For all those players, we basically gave up nothing whatsoever.

And I actually don't think Hampson is a failure. He actually played some good games. The problem is he can't play alongside Maric.

Newman's spot on the list basically means we have one less ROOKIE player and only half his salary is included in the cap. That to me is an absolute bargain. While I don't think he's played particularly well this year, he's definitely better than a rookie-listed player.

Agree. The assessment of the vision needs to be made in
light of
1) the cost
2) available alternatives
3) the complete basket case player demographic hardwick inherited.
Overall i think the club has done really well to put
the list in a position where value can be extracted
from our young stars.

Hampson so far has been the lowlight. No doubt.
 

PBoRSM

How many kids do I have??
Jun 11, 2004
712
20
Re: The Vision Men -- Richardson, Hartley and Jackson

Mr Magic said:
The McDonagh disappearence would be a Match Committee and Coaches call, likewise the Newman and Miles calls. Hardwick has stated publicly that he just didn't think Miles would have that big an impact at senior level. The Hardwick extension would be a CEO and Board decision. Vickery extension i'm ok with. However, whoever made the recommendation to trade for Hampson and then approved a 3 year contract needs to be sacked! Up there with the McMahon trade and swapping Schulz for Fatty Farmer as the worst trading decisions in our history. Good clubs just don't make these type of mistakes.

Not that I 100% believe this, but call see a sliver of merit in extending Hampo. Good tap ruckman (2nd to Sandi in league for taps to Adv. - or was at one point). Means we don't have to trade for a utility style big man.

Nah, sorry just couldn't write this with a straight face - not our best move.
 

Carter

Tiger Legend
Nov 14, 2012
9,464
7,767
Bill James said:
We seem to be talking about three issues: List Additons, Player Retention, and Selection

List Additions: I took the time and went through our list a couple of days ago paying particular attention to how we got players. For the most part I was very comfortable. For example players that I have been critical of this year:
Morris, we got him by giving pick 14 to GWS in exchange for pick 15, that's a great deal.
Grigg, we traded him for Andy Collins, great deal.
Houli, picked him up in the PSD, exactly what that's for
Newman, got him at pick 55 exactly where flankers should be taken fourth round where it all becomes a lottery.
Thomas, pick 42 in the Rookie Draft, that's a good deal if we get 20 games out of him and we would have if Miles hadn't come on so well.
Lloyd, pick 66 in the draft, again where speculative flankers should be picked up
Gordon, pick 50 in the draft, starting to get into the reliable return zone where picks on average can be expected to yield 50 games. For a 24yo this was only just fair value in my book.

The only player that looked like a bad deal at the time (as distinct from bad player)
Hampson, traded for pick 28, late second round picks on average return 80-100 game players. I don't think Hampson ever looked like he would give us 80-100 games so we paid too much.

List Retention
Do we keep players too long or do we turn them out too early. Its not hard to do the maths and work out how many players need to be turned over every year to ensure we have a good spread of positions and ages to maintain the list (its about 7). The specific keeps and cuts are little more complex and go to $, length of contract, insurance and subtle stuff like club morale.

Recent examples include
Rodan, good trade in my view, had a knee hadn't got his pace back and we had Krak and Tambling who looked better at the time.
Schulz, also a good trade, he had done little for us over many years, turns out it was a good trade for him and Port as well but doesn't mean it was a bad trade for us.
White, neutral trade, a three year deal would have been a stretch on his form, a two year deal would have been pretty easy. Never played this well for us, think he fits the Port game plan better than ours.
Newman, better than plenty on our list but may not be better than 22, its one year and whether or not its a good decision will depend on selection policy. Probably a low cost morale call.
McGuane, yep we forget the good cuts
Nahas, ditto
Thurston, ditto
Moore, probably kept him too long but was a team morale thing a bit like Coghlan


Selection
Personally I like a philosophy where its harder to get into the team than to get out. I think we perhaps err a little in rotating the journeymen into injury vacancies rather than trying the youngsters, eg not giving Miles a run but continually giving Thomas a go. But for the most part I like the concept that your first yellow sash has to be hard earned. If its hard earned it will be highly valued.


All in all I think the Vision men have done a pretty good job in the last 5 years.

good post BJ
 

ToraToraTora

Two outta three ain't bad.
Mar 21, 2005
12,725
5,520
QLD
The most disappointing thing for me over the last 2-3 years is our inability to trade "up" in the draft, to score extra first or second round picks. Also reading about not being able to land players like Longer and Nichols. What is it that is keeping us from doing this?
 

TigerFlag2017

Tiger Legend
May 16, 2007
6,920
4,307
What did the GWS pay for Mummy? I seem to recall thinking it was a steal (maybe a sweetner for taking Jed Lamb)
 

Tigertool

Tiger Legend
Mar 10, 2008
6,178
935
Tigerflag2008 said:
What did the GWS pay for Mummy? I seem to recall thinking it was a steal (maybe a sweetner for taking Jed Lamb)

They paid like, pick 41, but his asking price was about $650k+ or something ridiculous. Lamb was their PSD pick.
 

TrialByVideo

HailBGale!
Mar 1, 2015
4,439
8,574
Saw the word Vision attached to Benny's name and thought I'd post this link here... make of what you will the other stuff in this thread ;)

 

TigerFlag2017

Tiger Legend
May 16, 2007
6,920
4,307
They may well have a vision for our list, but at the moment I just can't see it.

The Hardwick extension. The Vickery reward. The Hampson debacle. The McDonagh disappearance. The Newman farce. The Miles Snub.

Has anyone seen Draft Day with Kevin Costner?

That's how I picture a room with these three guys debatin' the list (awesome film btw).

Not convinced they're all on the same page.
I guess the jury is still out???
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,142
14,981
hehe.... funny.

But to be fair in 2014/15 we were still trying to put the puzzle pieces together. Looking back you could see the Hampson trade as the first attempt to do a Nankervis trade, even though it cost us way too much. We got it right later with the Prestia for pick 6, we stuffed up Yarran obviously but the strategy was right. The brains trust could see the gaps in the list and was trying to fill them rather than going a full-rebuild. A leap of faith in terms of having Cotchin, Rance, Martin, Riewoldt as still having a premiership (or three?) in them.

It all clicked after the debacle of 2016 - in the words of PJK maybe "that was the recession we had to have". Took some moneyball risks on Prestia Nank and Caddy, replaced the assistants, reassessed the culture, changed the game style - necessity being the mother of invention after we lost Griffins etc.

Easy in hindsight of course but you can see the clear progression in the Dimma/Peggy/Benny/Francis/Hartley/Balme era from awful to quite good to great.
 
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Al Bundy

Premiers 2017, 2019, 2020 ...2021?
Aug 27, 2003
7,141
616
Melbourne
I actually believe went a touch further back.
Under Gary March the long change & framework began under him that contimued to be implemented and worked on. Felt very bad for him when he wasnt even invited to the 2017 GF !

here is a snippet where I believe the ball got rolling... Similar review happened again at the end of 2016.

 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,516
26,010
we need to be careful not to rewrite history here ...

Carter and Baz were as critical to our drought breaking premiership as Dusty and Dimma were.

They played their unsung and selfless role magnificently.

without the polarising sea of mediocrity, im convinced we'd be shooting for 40 years without a flag
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,172
19,042
I actually believe went a touch further back.
Under Gary March the long change & framework began under him that contimued to be implemented and worked on. Felt very bad for him when he wasnt even invited to the 2017 GF !

here is a snippet where I believe the ball got rolling... Similar review happened again at the end of 2016.



March and Wright stopped the bleeding and self-destruction. Without them we probably would be known as the Timor Tigers. Peggy and Brendon then took over and built a giant, but it's all on the foundations March and Wright laid.
 
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caesar

Tiger Legend
Feb 9, 2015
8,028
21,715
Saw the word Vision attached to Benny's name and thought I'd post this link here... make of what you will the other stuff in this thread ;)


Listening to that interview this morning has me concerned that Benny will take over from Gill in the next couple of years :mad:
 

UKTiger

Tiger Legend
Jul 11, 2010
9,409
7,671
Shipston on Stour, UK
Listening to that interview this morning has me concerned that Benny will take over from Gill in the next couple of years :mad:
Mixed thoughts on that. Gale has overseen our transformation and we are rock solid but my guess is Benny will need a new challenge soon and what better than to head the AFL and root out all the double dealing, dishonesty and specific club and player favouritism. Would hate to see him go but he would leave our club in a great place
 
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waiting

Tiger Legend
Apr 15, 2007
14,058
9,171
Victoria
Mixed thoughts on that. Gale has overseen our transformation and we are rock solid but my guess is Benny will need a new challenge soon and what better than to head the AFL and root out all the double dealing, dishonesty and specific club and player favouritism. Would hate to see him go but he would leave our club in a great place

I too heard the interview.
It was like Tim & Gary were trying hard for him to head off to the AFL (new challenge).
Benny was diplomatic but i feel he still hasnt finished his job.
I sensed a hunger to win more premierships.

Here is the interview.
Spoke wonderfully well.
In safe hands we are and so thankful he is at our club.

A WHOLE CLUB BUY IN.

 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,142
14,981
I actually believe went a touch further back.
Under Gary March the long change & framework began under him that contimued to be implemented and worked on. Felt very bad for him when he wasnt even invited to the 2017 GF !

here is a snippet where I believe the ball got rolling... Similar review happened again at the end of 2016.


Great point.
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,303
862
Lol, I was so comprehensively wrong. Not the first or last time.

One thing I know for sure is that we’ve got something so special happening at the moment.

Not even sure it’s a once in a generation thing.

This current era could be one for the ages.
 
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TigerFlag2017

Tiger Legend
May 16, 2007
6,920
4,307
Lol, I was so comprehensively wrong. Not the first or last time.

One thing I know for sure is that we’ve got something so special happening at the moment.

Not even sure it’s a once in a generation thing.

This current era could be one for the ages.
Don't stop sharing your thoughts and analysis mate, always a good read and a reason to come onto pre
 
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