Thomas Sims thread | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Thomas Sims thread


Listen to Tarranto’s thoughts on strength and conditioning @ 30min 30 sec. He is advocating a more individual approach.
If he is cooked at training, how are the young recruits going? New recruits will be trying to impress on not wanting to pull out of sessions. They won’t have the confidence to say “I’m a bit sore” I need to skip this session. I know they were eased into the program, but I get the feeling once they were in full training, they were in full training. (Potentially contributing to a there was a degree of overload) Smilie was training the house down early in pre-season ….then he broke down and never got back.
And from a match committee point of view there was an emphasis to get games into recruits.
Did Simms play too much in his first season?

Except they were managed and missed sessions as late as up to the mid year break. Clearly enunciated by Serpell in a number of his updates and commented on in the Training thread.

And once they were in full training they still get held back sent to the sidelines to sit out a drill, wear a non contact cap, do a few gentle run throughs with the rehab guys. Again commented on ad nauseum.

Read today's training report. Smillie could play this weekend if needed. He's leaner, quicker on his feet. It's noticeable. Ohhh, just the transition/conditioning that Serpell and Livo have described.
 
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Except they were managed and missed sessions as late as up to the mid year break. Clearly enunciated by Serpell in a number of his updates and commented on in the Training thread.

And once they were in full training they still get held back sent to the sidelines to sit out a drill, wear a non contact cap, do a few gentle run throughs with the rehab guys. Again commented on ad nauseum.

Read today's training report. Smillie could play this weekend if needed. He's leaner, quicker on his feet. It's noticeable. Ohhh, just the transition/conditioning that Serpell and Livo have described.
Good points - fair enough

Just purely unlucky then.

FWIW I don’t think an uninjured player should ever be taken offline for conditioning in season. The time for that is the off-season and if necessary the preseason. Players hate this when they are injured.
 
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It’s noble of you to call on support for the clubs fitness program.
I felt it was reasonable to question the clubs new focus on repeat sprinting on growing young bodies. You choose to spin and ridicule it.

I haven’t been questioning the uncontrollable injuries or the number of injuries per se. And It’s a pointless exercise comparing the injury numbers with other clubs, as there are so many factors that come into it. The club will assess our own injuries case by case.

I believe there are legitimate question marks around the injuries and handling of certain players.

Despite your “nothing to see here” attitude, I am confident that the club will be taking the soft tissue and overuse injuries seriously and looking at what can be done better next year, and there would be a healthy tension within the club.
I for one enjoy reading the alternative perspectives of others.
Firstly, my post wasn't just directed at you, there's multiple people with similar approaches.

As for my approach, It's not a "nothing to see here attitude", it's a belief that we don't hire incompetent staff or staff who are negligent in their duties. Folks on these boards (not singling you out, talking generally) act as if the club isn't professionally run or at times lacks basic competence. It'd be borderline insulting to some of those professionals at best.

Your "take the soft tissue injuries seriously" comment above infers that they need to be doing something different to normal. You've made assumptions about "overuse" injuries. Have you got the medical files? Do you know that's the diagnosis or the direct cause? Do you not think the club would be taking every injury seriously? Looking at the specifics of each individual person and their tailor made program and seeing what they need to do to help that person build strength in areas their body isn’t coping with? Would there ever be a time a club wouldn't be analysing things and taking them seriously?

We strap GPS units to our players to measure how much they move. The players would be talking to staff saying they've got an ache here, tightness there.

Do people think our experts just happen to miss a stress fracture, or hamstring tightness, etc? We aren't constantly talking to the players - the clubs on field assets - and making sure they're able to perform at their best? We aren't constantly looking and analysing how to get a 1% edge over the competition? They're sports scientists and health professionals, not St Johns ambulance volunteers.

The comparison with other clubs, was to highlight that footy is complicated. It's not as simple as a strategy of pre-season training used to build a fitness base causing folks to break down. Remember, that was implemented because it's how the sport is played. Train like you play etc.

You've drawn a correlation between our conditioning strategy of repeat, burst sprinting and our injuries. Where is the detailed evidence to back that up? Do you think that we aren't monitoring our players closely enough, getting feedback when they feel sore etc? Do you think we ignore that feedback? Do you think that if we'd used a more endurance based approach our injuries would be better or worse? What's the evidence behind that?

I love to hear differing points of view. It's good to be challenged and made to think from another perspective. There's posters here I find almost always have differing points of view to my own, but they make good points and influence the wsy i think.

Challenge is good, it's fun. Be good if those challenges are based on facts, rather than assumptions or Google/AI searches though.
 
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Clearly I was responding to your ridicule.

I didn’t need a google search to tell me a Navicular stress fracture or planta fasciitis raise questions marks. Clearly I used it for the full wording and if you don’t think Ai is a worthy resource maybe you need to get with the program.

Be good if you didn’t counter legitimate questions with ridicule and calling in your mates.
 
Clearly I used it for the full wording and if you don’t think Ai is a worthy resource maybe you need to get with the program.

AI needs to be fact checked.

It runs off tokens and human training of its response to those tokens. Then the automation of the initial human response to further train.

It is strongly incentivised to give an answer even when it doesn’t know the truth unless that gets trained out of it very well.

It can do some awesome stuff but also some complete rubbish.

Just yesterday I googled how to get myki on my iPhone which it happily told me involved installing Google wallet on my iPhone as part of a Multi step process. . (My son lost his card)

Then I google how to install Google wallet on my iPhone and it tells me that is impossible. (Which it is)

I’m not trusting AI as read for ACL input without doing some work / talking to experts.
 
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AI needs to be fact checked.

It runs off tokens and human training of its response to those tokens. Then the automation of the initial human response to further train.

It is strongly incentivised to give an answer even when it doesn’t know the truth unless that gets trained out of it very well.

It can do some awesome stuff but also some complete rubbish.

Just yesterday I googled how to get myki on my iPhone which it happily told me involved installing Google wallet on my iPhone as part of a Multi step process. . (My son lost his card)

Then I google how to install Google wallet on my iPhone and it tells me that is impossible. (Which it is)

I’m not trusting AI as read for ACL input without doing some work / talking to experts.
Yes always fact-check but it's easy to do these days. All of the AI tools now give links to their sources or if they don't will when you ask. It's actually great to receive links to, for example, actual study links etc.

PS you can't install myki on an iPhone but you can use the PTV app, all stated on the Transport Victoria website.

 
.....

FWIW I don’t think an uninjured player should ever be taken offline for conditioning in season. The time for that is the off-season and if necessary the preseason. Players hate this when they are injured.
This is a really interesting conundrum. Yze is on record in saying the pre-season isnt long enough for junior players. Other clubs have said similar things.

There is lots of discussions in multiple threads about players needing 3 or 4 pre- seasons to come fully up to speed (strength and fitness). Ben Miller referred to this in a recent Q&A post match. I know the club thinks similarly. My background in elite sport (a few decades ago and not me but my partner) was of a four year build up to make an Olympic squad.

There is an element of the club trying accelerate this 3 or 4 years into 2 to 3 and I get that there is varying levels of buy in from players (and their managers/ families etc). But adding extra weeks of conditioning into players costs this year but hopefully benefits in 2 years time. And yes that is a very vexed question.

That to me is something to watch next year and 2027. If we're up and running early in 27 or 28 then maybe the planning and workload this year pays off.

And yes I see the club taking this 2 to 3 year approach currently.
 
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FWIW I don’t think an uninjured player should ever be taken offline for conditioning in season. The time for that is the off-season and if necessary the preseason. Players hate this when they are injured.

So you want to go into an area of science with a lot of grey areas and individual aspects with a hard and fast absolute like "no conditioning during the season", despite that that may be the best scenario for the individual in question? That seems a very outdated and old school method of thinking.

Sports science has evolved drastically and I assume you are talking about Smillie with the above, then it sounds like "conditioning" or more likely the strength aspect of strength and conditioning being the best option for him, especially as they had spoken about his hamstring approach.

Let me be the devils advocate here, so Smillie had a hamstring in the pre-season, then pulled it again, we then put him in for "conditioning" for the rest of the year and it appears the hamstring is now much better, and hopefully the overall hamstring / quad complex is now much more resilient to stress, had we not done that, sent him out again and he pulled his hamstring again, would you not have also been slamming the S&C team? Ie. they literally have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a supporters perspective? Why wouldn't we put trust in them, rather than is being mere plebs typing away at home on our keyboards?
 
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So you want to go into an area of science with a lot of grey areas and individual aspects with a hard and fast absolute like "no conditioning during the season", despite that that may be the best scenario for the individual in question? That seems a very outdated and old school method of thinking.

Sports science has evolved drastically and I assume you are talking about Smillie with the above, then it sounds like "conditioning" or more likely the strength aspect of strength and conditioning being the best option for him, especially as they had spoken about his hamstring approach.

Let me be the devils advocate here, so Smillie had a hamstring in the pre-season, then pulled it again, we then put him in for "conditioning" for the rest of the year and it appears the hamstring is now much better, and hopefully the overall hamstring / quad complex is now much more resilient to stress, had we not done that, sent him out again and he pulled his hamstring again, would you not have also been slamming the S&C team? Ie. they literally have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a supporters perspective? Why wouldn't we put trust in them, rather than is being mere plebs typing away at home on our keyboards?
I actually think the complete opposite to 68. I dont understand why more "kids" dont spend more of their early career in the gym/running.
Obviously there is a limit to how much weight someone can sensibly add in a short time and still be able to run, but a lot of talls in particular are held back in their early 20s because they are not strong enough. Could they have added that strength with a few in season month long blocks of lifting?
(I say this with no expertise in the area)

I also think the same when players (younger ones in particular miss the start of pre-season- why not keep their pre-season length the same and miss the start of the season? I know players want to play, so this needs to be balanced.
 
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I actually think the complete opposite to 68. I dont understand why more "kids" dont spend more of their early career in the gym/running.
Obviously there is a limit to how much weight someone can sensibly add in a short time and still be able to run, but a lot of talls in particular are held back in their early 20s because they are not strong enough. Could they have added that strength with a few in season month long blocks of lifting?
(I say this with no expertise in the area)

I also think the same when players (younger ones in particular miss the start of pre-season- why not keep their pre-season length the same and miss the start of the season? I know players want to play, so this needs to be balanced.

I tend to agree, you have a lot of young guys whose bodies aren't quite right being pushed to play the most footy in their 1st years. NFL is probably a good comparison, similar from a body impact position, but they don't get drafted until after their college degrees in most cases, they play against similar aged players through the college system before being drafted to the NFL when they are 22/23. They've done the body development stuff all through college football, we want them to do that whilst being hit by much older and more developed players whether thats in the AFL or VFL.
 
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I tend to agree, you have a lot of young guys whose bodies aren't quite right being pushed to play the most footy in their 1st years. NFL is probably a good comparison, similar from a body impact position, but they don't get drafted until after their college degrees in most cases, they play against similar aged players through the college system before being drafted to the NFL when they are 22/23. They've done the body development stuff all through college football, we want them to do that whilst being hit by much older and more developed players whether thats in the AFL or VFL.
I’ve advocated for the kids to play a season of VFL footy and be 19 when drafted for similar reasons. An extra season to develop as a player, body development, not worrying about getting drafted and trying to finish year 12, you get to see how they go playing against men rather than boys.
 
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I’ve advocated for the kids to play a season of VFL footy and be 19 when drafted for similar reasons. An extra season to develop as a player, body development, not worrying about getting drafted and trying to finish year 12, you get to see how they go playing against men rather than boys.

This would also assist in equalisation.

Low draft picks would have much more value, as you'd be more likely to get a high quality footballer.

Plus, the VFL becomes a more interesting watch.
 
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This would also assist in equalisation.

Low draft picks would have much more value, as you'd be more likely to get a high quality footballer.

Plus, the VFL becomes a more interesting watch.
I agree the only problem I can see with it is what happens in that first year of transition though after they raise the age limit and the only players available are blokes who weren't good enough to be drafted- you can't just suspend the draft for a year for the change over.
 
I agree the only problem I can see with it is what happens in that first year of transition though after they raise the age limit and the only players available are blokes who weren't good enough to be drafted- you can't just suspend the draft for a year for the change over.
Why not?
 
So you want to go into an area of science with a lot of grey areas and individual aspects with a hard and fast absolute like "no conditioning during the season", despite that that may be the best scenario for the individual in question? That seems a very outdated and old school method of thinking.

Sports science has evolved drastically and I assume you are talking about Smillie with the above, then it sounds like "conditioning" or more likely the strength aspect of strength and conditioning being the best option for him, especially as they had spoken about his hamstring approach.

Let me be the devils advocate here, so Smillie had a hamstring in the pre-season, then pulled it again, we then put him in for "conditioning" for the rest of the year and it appears the hamstring is now much better, and hopefully the overall hamstring / quad complex is now much more resilient to stress, had we not done that, sent him out again and he pulled his hamstring again, would you not have also been slamming the S&C team? Ie. they literally have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a supporters perspective? Why wouldn't we put trust in them, rather than is being mere plebs typing away at home on our keyboards?
I have expressed an opinion - it was prefaced with FWIW

My opinion extended beyond sports science and included other important and relevant factors.
 
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I actually think the complete opposite to 68. I dont understand why more "kids" dont spend more of their early career in the gym/running.
Obviously there is a limit to how much weight someone can sensibly add in a short time and still be able to run, but a lot of talls in particular are held back in their early 20s because they are not strong enough. Could they have added that strength with a few in season month long blocks of lifting?
(I say this with no expertise in the area)

I also think the same when players (younger ones in particular miss the start of pre-season- why not keep their pre-season length the same and miss the start of the season? I know players want to play, so this needs to be balanced.
I can speak from my own experience.

I was an athlete that played football. I played for 15 years and was faster and fitter than everybody I played with. I struggled with hamstring injuries my whole footy career. Particularly so when I was young. More is not always better. You need to find the right balance between intensity (playing or training) and rest. It took a long time to learn that I needed to train less. Dangerfield has learnt to manage this balance pretty well, and does not train much between games.

Hamstrings are still a big unknown - sport science hasn’t solved this one.
 
So you'd be happy if Richmond finished bottom 4 that first year but only had access to the rejects from the previous year's draft and a greatly diminished chance of drafting a good player?
Yes.

There's so much *smile* that happens that makes the draft an unfair crap shoot, I'd absolutely take one year of nonsense to fix it.

It's not really any different to when GC and GWS came in.
 
Yes.

There's so much *smile* that happens that makes the draft an unfair crap shoot, I'd absolutely take one year of nonsense to fix it.

It's not really any different to when GC and GWS came in.
It would be quite different- the Suns/Giants had maybe 15 of the top 25 picks- give or take. You are suckering advocating for a draft with most of the top 50 picks gone. It won't happen.

A staged transition could. Only allowing 18yos to be taken in the 1st 2 rounds 1 year, then in the 1st rd the next. Or something.

But I reckon there are too many 18yos ready for AFL footy for this to happen.