Trade period 2021 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • If you are having trouble logging in to the forum please contact [email protected] // When reseting your password or awaiting confirmation please check that your email is correct and also your junk/spam emails.
  • IMPORTANT! Our inbox is full of email errors from members who have not updated their emails, please follow the instructions on how to update here
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Trade period 2021

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
12,020
9,401
Thought I’ll post this here for fun


PICK 1: EVERY SELECTION SINCE 1990​

Adelaide: Nil

Brisbane: John Hutton (1991), Des Headland (1998), Cam Rayner (2017)

Carlton: Marc Murphy (2005), Bryce Gibbs (2006), Matthew Kreuzer (2007), Jacob Weitering (2015), Sam Walsh (2018)

Collingwood: Josh Fraser (1999)

Essendon: Andrew McGrath (2016)

Fremantle: Jeff White (1994), Clive Waterhouse (1995)

Geelong: Stephen Hooper (1990)

Gold Coast: David Swallow (2010), Matt Rowell (2019)

GWS Giants: Jon Patton (2011), Lachie Whitfield (2012), Tom Boyd (2013)

Hawthorn: Luke Hodge (2001)

Melbourne: Travis Johnstone (1997), Jack Watts (2008), Tom Scully (2009)

North Melbourne: Nil

Port Adelaide: Nil

Richmond: Brett Deledio (2004)

St Kilda: Nick Riewoldt (2000), Brendon Goddard (2002), Paddy McCartin (2014)

Sydney: Darren Gaspar (1993)

West Coast: Drew Banfield (1992), Michael Gardiner (1996)

Western Bulldogs: Adam Cooney (2003), Jamarra Ugle-Hagan (2020)

The remarkable thing about that list though is the distinct lack of premierships for most of them.

Just shows that getting Pick 1 isn't the Holy Grail its made out to be, and that 1 very good player isn't worth selling the farm for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Born_a_Tiger78

Tiger Rookie
Jul 16, 2008
244
106
1991 wasn't an open draft as we now know it. Clubs still had under-19s and zones that they could sign players from.
Does anyone know how many of the 1989 Under 19 premiership team went on to play VFL / AFL or even reserves with Richmond? And then did any not play with Richmond and go to other VFL/AFL clubs?
 

tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
25,964
5,702
Does anyone know how many of the 1989 Under 19 premiership team went on to play VFL / AFL or even reserves with Richmond? And then did any not play with Richmond and go to other VFL/AFL clubs?
B: B Collery, G Theile, R Walker
HB: Stuart Maxfield, Stephen Ryan, C Young
C: S Raggatt, B Steenholdt, G Edwards
HF: A Pickering, S Bowden, R Elliott
F: A James, M Rice, D Flight
R: M Francis, S Cochrane, Dallas Kalms
Inter: Ty Esler, A Lindsay, P Lodge

By me reckoning the 7 I’ve highlighted were the only ones to play senior AFL.
 

spook

Tiger Legend
Jun 18, 2007
15,921
11,214
Melbourne
Does anyone know how many of the 1989 Under 19 premiership team went on to play VFL / AFL or even reserves with Richmond? And then did any not play with Richmond and go to other VFL/AFL clubs?
1989
Richmond 12.10.82 def Nth Melb 5.7.37

B: B Collery, G Theile, R Walker
HB: Stuart Maxfield, Stephen Ryan, C Young
C: S Raggatt, B Steenholdt, G Edwards
HF: A Pickering, S Bowden, R Elliott
F: A James, M Rice, D Flight
R: M Francis, S Cochrane, Dallas Kalms
Inter: Ty Esler, A Lindsay, P Lodge

Goals: Steenholdt (2), Rice (2), Pickering (2), Maxfield (1), Ryan (1), Young (1), Elliott (1), Flight (1), James (1)

 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
13,436
2,370
How embarrassment for poor Carlscum. Had three number one picks in a row n still couldn't build a good team on the back of them. They've currently got two number one picks and are flat out trying to purchase a team to put around them.
The number one pick can be a poisoned chalice, I'd even be inclined to bid on Daicos just to relieve some pressure on Horne-Francis. Still can't get my head around the fact that the market has effectively valued Horne-Francis at 4 first rounders. For a guy who was tagged out of it by Sheldrick the road might be a bit more difficult than the pundits have made out. Not sure he'll stay at North either & I don't think he'll demand a king's ransom in two years when he wants out of Arden Street.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
21,438
4,914
Still can't get my head around the fact that the market has effectively valued Horne-Francis at 4 first rounders. For a guy who was tagged out of it by Sheldrick the road might be a bit more difficult than the pundits have made out.
With all the covid interruptions to juniors over the last two years. I'm not sure anyone can truly have a handle on how good, or bad these kids actually are. Rating one player as worthy of 3 or 4 first round selections is just ludicrous. Got me a feeling that there's plenty of scope for finding very good youngsters within the first two rounds of this draft and the main reason I'm more than happy to take our five picks. Reckon there's to much risk of combining picks n pushing up the draft only to trip over the flub selection of a kid who's already reached his plateau.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

123cups

Tiger Champion
May 1, 2016
2,579
2,531
The remarkable thing about that list though is the distinct lack of premierships for most of them.

Just shows that getting Pick 1 isn't the Holy Grail its made out to be, and that 1 very good player isn't worth selling the farm for.

That’s a very popular view, but I‘ll present for debate that the lack of flags among #1 picks suggests only two things:

1. Wooden spoon clubs aren’t entitled to win premierships within a decade or so of winning the wooden spoon

2. Successful clubs generally aren’t in a realistic position to trade for Pick 1.

We’d all agree that for a team sport with 44 players on match day and 36 on the ground at once, one player will never make up the difference between a team of 22 players at a good club vs 22 players at a bad club. Point #2 is the interesting one, as it doesn't apply to us. We are a successful club with a realistic hand to deal for Pick 1.

In context of our ageing dynasty list and the 2021 draft... when else would we ever get access to a bonafide elite talent at a young age to develop as a future leader under Dimma, Trent, Jack, Shane, etc?

I raise that specific question because we could be the first ever dynasty club to:

a.) still have most of our premiership veterans playing
b.) still be in the hunt next year,
c.) ...while also having the most draft currency of any club.

It’s a unique position giving us the rare ability to hedge our bets - we could allow the possibility of everything going right next year by drafting a player who can impact immediately, while also looking long-term for a leader 12 years from now. Only the very top picks give you that.
Dynasty clubs generally can’t access them. We can.

I know it’s not as simple as I’m framing it and there’s so many other factors that I‘m certainly overlooking, but it’d be original. If we look to the past, we relinquish our opportunity to be the first club to get the dynasty list situation right.

All the previous dynasty clubs have failed, as the system intended for them to do, but most of them are irrelevant to us anyway because the game’s professionalism and direction has changed by more than Richo’s goal-kicking accuracy from one week to the next. (*ahem* That’s a lot...)

Geelong’s dynasty, ending just 10 years ago, was the first time in this sport’s history in which all clubs finally had full-time recruiters.

I guess the broader point I’m trying to make is the AFL as a sport is primed for innovative thinking. Historical patterns are of limited significance. It so happens that we have been willing to tear down the old and build something new in recent years, as symbolised by Trent giving up #17, Gale changing our club logo, or demolishing an old stand. We’ve been very willing to be revolutionary in a period of rapid change. History can only help us so much right now.

Bold, new ways of thinking has worked out well for us, and our current draft hand affords us the gift of unshackled creativity in a draft environment that has little history to draw upon.

In that light, we’re primed to do something novel in this draft amidst a buffet of live trade options on the night. I’d love to snare Pick 1, and shortly thereafter create new evidence, hopefully, against the idea that #1 picks don’t win premierships.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

123cups

Tiger Champion
May 1, 2016
2,579
2,531
The number one pick can be a poisoned chalice, I'd even be inclined to bid on Daicos just to relieve some pressure on Horne-Francis. Still can't get my head around the fact that the market has effectively valued Horne-Francis at 4 first rounders. For a guy who was tagged out of it by Sheldrick the road might be a bit more difficult than the pundits have made out. Not sure he'll stay at North either & I don't think he'll demand a king's ransom in two years when he wants out of Arden Street.

Any thoughts on Horne-Francis as a leader and person?

The great people are obviously so from a young age. As a teenager, Trent stopped the entire team during a gym session to make sure they gave a minute’s silence for the Anzac’s. It should be fairly noticeable pre-draft.

If there’s little chatter about Horne-Francis being a great person, then he’s probably just another extremely talented player, like a Deledio or a Goddard, which would make him far less desirable to build around as a future leader alongside our premiership veterans.

It’s a different story if he’s in the mould of a Hodge or a Cotchin.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

CarnTheTiges

This is a REAL tiger
Mar 8, 2004
21,545
4,751
Victoria
The remarkable thing about that list though is the distinct lack of premierships for most of them.

Just shows that getting Pick 1 isn't the Holy Grail its made out to be, and that 1 very good player isn't worth selling the farm for.
Only about 3 Premiership players in all of them and one of them win his flag at a different club.
 

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
21,438
4,914
I raise that specific question because we could be the first ever dynasty club to:

a.) still have most of our premiership veterans playing
b.) still be in the hunt next year,
c.) ...while also having the most draft currency of any club.



Geelong’s dynasty, ending just 10 years ago, was the first time in this sport’s history in which all clubs finally had full-time recruiters.
While we all love to hang *smile* on Geelold, me especially. They're still playing finals and in prelims / grannies year on year without getting anywhere near a number one pick. They've been riding a fairly successful wave of opportunity for near to twenty years now.

Both Hawforn n Brisvegas fell into the hole of being very successful n giving up early picks to stay at the top n crumbled as the system is structured to cause.

More than happy with our current draft currency with 5 early picks this year and already an extra early one for next year, done right there's the core for remaining in the flag hunt over future years n not crumbling back down the lower half. Reckon pushing picks trying to pluck a one off star when there's been two years of interruptions to junior footy is fraught with danger. Especially when two of those perceived stars are already gone as F/ S selections.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
6,851
8,891
Melbourne
While we all love to hang *smile* on Geelold, me especially. They're still playing finals and in prelims / grannies year on year without getting anywhere near a number one pick. They've been riding a fairly successful wave of opportunity for near to twenty years now.

But the question remains, 10 years since the last flag - was it worth it to stay in the top 4 without success, or have they just delayed the inevitable?

Honestly, they have been close enough to probably justify the attempt to stay near the top, but the lack of a flag in that time has to be counted as a failure. We all predict their demise but they have done a great job of defying gravity . . . surely it can't last.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
21,438
4,914
But the question remains, 10 years since the last flag - was it worth it to stay in the top 4 without success, or have they just delayed the inevitable?

Honestly, they have been close enough to probably justify the attempt to stay near the top, but the lack of a flag in that time has to be counted as a failure. We all predict their demise but they have done a great job of defying gravity . . . surely it can't last.

DS
17 clubs manage to fail every year.
At least the moggies have been able to keep themselves genuinely in the hunt for another flag year after year. I'm also one who's been gleefully predicting their demise every year for ten years, bastards simply refuse to do the right thing n turn to *smile*, but I keep hoping.

The central point of the discussion was more around 123 cups thinking to combine a bunch of picks to try n dig deep into an early premium pick as against retaining the picks we have and building a generation worth of quality players.
Moggies haven't had much in the way of early picks for ages, yet through careful list management they're up and in the hunt constantly.
Hawforn who won their raft of flags much more recently than the moggies, pushed out some ageing champs n traded their early picks for ready made imports n promptly dropped away to the lower half of the ladder.
The system has been designed for clubs such as Brisvegas, Hawforn to drop after a successful period of challenging for flags. The Moggies have pretty much defied the system.
We're in the perfect position to take a strong draft hand to refresh our list while still remaining in flag contention. Question is whether to roll the dice n hope we can find a young star who might help us pinch one more n then spend another ten or more years fading out n rebuilding. Or do we go for the refresh with a handful of quality kids, hope we've still got enough grunt to grab another flag anyway while also building enough future to stay in contention over a long period n maybe even grab another two or three flags.
No flag guarantees whichever way we chose to go, but I'd prefer to stay in the hunt rather than end up dragging the raggedy arse over the gravel at the bottom of the ladder.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

year of the tiger

Tiger Legend
Mar 26, 2008
8,077
3,412
Tasmania
17 clubs manage to fail every year.
At least the moggies have been able to keep themselves genuinely in the hunt for another flag year after year. I'm also one who's been gleefully predicting their demise every year for ten years, bastards simply refuse to do the right thing n turn to *smile*, but I keep hoping.

The central point of the discussion was more around 123 cups thinking to combine a bunch of picks to try n dig deep into an early premium pick as against retaining the picks we have and building a generation worth of quality players.
Moggies haven't had much in the way of early picks for ages, yet through careful list management they're up and in the hunt constantly.
Hawforn who won their raft of flags much more recently than the moggies, pushed out some ageing champs n traded their early picks for ready made imports n promptly dropped away to the lower half of the ladder.
The system has been designed for clubs such as Brisvegas, Hawforn to drop after a successful period of challenging for flags. The Moggies have pretty much defied the system.
We're in the perfect position to take a strong draft hand to refresh our list while still remaining in flag contention. Question is whether to roll the dice n hope we can find a young star who might help us pinch one more n then spend another ten or more years fading out n rebuilding. Or do we go for the refresh with a handful of quality kids, hope we've still got enough grunt to grab another flag anyway while also building enough future to stay in contention over a long period n maybe even grab another two or three flags.
No flag guarantees whichever way we chose to go, but I'd prefer to stay in the hunt rather than end up dragging the raggedy arse over the gravel at the bottom of the ladder.

I think the cats have fooled everyone including themselves. The only reason they have been contenders is that they got a dangermouse to join them, it’s like he’s the difference between top 4 and coming 9th or 10th. He has been an excellent H&A player - one of the best and it’s just our luck he is a hopeless finals player.

He is in decline and I reckon, unless the cats find another generational player, their decline will come swiftly this time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
6,851
8,891
Melbourne
17 clubs manage to fail every year.
At least the moggies have been able to keep themselves genuinely in the hunt for another flag year after year. I'm also one who's been gleefully predicting their demise every year for ten years, bastards simply refuse to do the right thing n turn to *smile*, but I keep hoping.

The central point of the discussion was more around 123 cups thinking to combine a bunch of picks to try n dig deep into an early premium pick as against retaining the picks we have and building a generation worth of quality players.
Moggies haven't had much in the way of early picks for ages, yet through careful list management they're up and in the hunt constantly.
Hawforn who won their raft of flags much more recently than the moggies, pushed out some ageing champs n traded their early picks for ready made imports n promptly dropped away to the lower half of the ladder.
The system has been designed for clubs such as Brisvegas, Hawforn to drop after a successful period of challenging for flags. The Moggies have pretty much defied the system.
We're in the perfect position to take a strong draft hand to refresh our list while still remaining in flag contention. Question is whether to roll the dice n hope we can find a young star who might help us pinch one more n then spend another ten or more years fading out n rebuilding. Or do we go for the refresh with a handful of quality kids, hope we've still got enough grunt to grab another flag anyway while also building enough future to stay in contention over a long period n maybe even grab another two or three flags.
No flag guarantees whichever way we chose to go, but I'd prefer to stay in the hunt rather than end up dragging the raggedy arse over the gravel at the bottom of the ladder.

Well, the system is designed to even out the competition so staying up top is bloody hard.

The debate about taking young players at the draft or topping up the list is perennial, doubt there really is a right answer. In this draft I would like to see them keep the picks we have, but if they go the other way and use a couple to trade up I wouldn't be disappointed either.

Oh, and I'll just keep death riding the Cats.

DS
 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
23,010
8,293
The remarkable thing about that list though is the distinct lack of premierships for most of them.

Just shows that getting Pick 1 isn't the Holy Grail its made out to be, and that 1 very good player isn't worth selling the farm for.
It's coz you are picked by the worst club in the land. If you want a premiership the wise thing is to tank your performances to not get picked at 1.
 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
13,436
2,370
Any thoughts on Horne-Francis as a leader and person?

The great people are obviously so from a young age. As a teenager, Trent stopped the entire team during a gym session to make sure they gave a minute’s silence for the Anzac’s. It should be fairly noticeable pre-draft.

If there’s little chatter about Horne-Francis being a great person, then he’s probably just another extremely talented player, like a Deledio or a Goddard, which would make him far less desirable to build around as a future leader alongside our premiership veterans.

It’s a different story if he’s in the mould of a Hodge or a Cotchin.
I'm not so sure about his change room demeanor but he does lead by example on the field, he's fearless and talented. I get the love but I don't get the market rate & I think North could have laid the foundations for a complete list overhaul whilst also spreading the risk around. Horne-Francis will need to be an outright champ to be more valuable than 4 first rounders, no question I would rather take Hobbs, Johnson, Rachele & Goater/Sonsie if I'm North.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
12,020
9,401
It's coz you are picked by the worst club in the land. If you want a premiership the wise thing is to tank your performances to not get picked at 1.

I think its a good sign that equalisation in its current form doesn't work.

Its why the AFL need some new blood and reform the entire football department spending.

IMO (and mentioned this on another thread), teams should be able to "sacrifice" some of their TPP and spent it instead in the soft cap for football department spending. ie. Increase spending on scouting players (get better kids with your draft picks) and spend more on development coaches (to ensure those kids have the absolute best development in order for their skills to develop).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

deedee

Tiger Matchwinner
Sep 12, 2011
589
497
While we all love to hang *smile* on Geelold, me especially. They're still playing finals and in prelims / grannies year on year without getting anywhere near a number one pick. They've been riding a fairly successful wave of opportunity for near to twenty years now.

Both Hawforn n Brisvegas fell into the hole of being very successful n giving up early picks to stay at the top n crumbled as the system is structured to cause.

More than happy with our current draft currency with 5 early picks this year and already an extra early one for next year, done right there's the core for remaining in the flag hunt over future years n not crumbling back down the lower half. Reckon pushing picks trying to pluck a one off star when there's been two years of interruptions to junior footy is fraught with danger. Especially when two of those perceived stars are already gone as F/ S selections.
They can have all the prelims they like, I'll take our 3 flags.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users