U.S Presidential Election | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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U.S Presidential Election

Ridley

Tiger Legend
Jul 21, 2003
17,823
15,567
So his lardness hid in the bunker - ok, the Secret Service took him there - but then he lies about it. "I was just doing an inspection".

Uses the military and tear gas to clear a path through peaceful demonstrators to a nearby church for a photo-op. Oh, and kicked the pastor out too. And didn't bother to pray.

Esper (SecDef) flat out stated that troops will not be used unconstitutionally. Generals John Allen and Mattis are dumping on him.


Not a great 24 hours for the greatest leader in world history. The leader the world needs.
I truly hope the American people get their collective *smile* together and vote him out in November.

However my fear is that Biden is not the person to unite that country. He inspires no confidence and seems a real wet blanket. Plus he's as old as Methuselah; he is going to need a lot of energy to sort out that cluster *smile*.
 

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,785
11,943
I'm tipping I would understand that only the very rare shark-attack-probability rogue would pose a threat to me while I abide by the law, and that they are protecting me against criminal behaviour. I'd also insist that Office Chauvin meets the full force of his own law. But then again I might be hyper-sensitive to incidents where my "brothers" are hurt and gain a distorted perspective, living in the deranged belief that the cops are out to get me. I might even smash a few windows to relieve the strain of it all.

I'm disgusted at the way the AAT constantly favours minority demographic criminals to the detriment of the majority of Australians, but I wouldn't bomb the joint.
A quick google tells me on average 80 people are killed by sharks each year. Worldwide.
1004 people were shot and killed in the US by cops in 2019 ( not sure how many were killed by a cop kneeling on them for 8minutes)- not quite the same odds i would think.

Can you give any examples of AAT decisions you are unhappy with?
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
A quick google tells me on average 80 people are killed by sharks each year.

Try a slower Google, then.

You seem to be suggesting cops are never justified in shooting people dead.
Can you give any examples of AAT decisions you are unhappy with?

No, it's off topic. Pretty much every decision that makes the papers has me shaking my head.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,785
11,943
Try a slower Google, then.

You seem to be suggesting cops are never justified in shooting people dead.


No, it's off topic. Pretty much every decision that makes the papers has me shaking my head.
a slower google tells me the same figures. can you provide others.

and of course i am not suggesting cops are never justified in killing, - careful some other posters get very offended when you put words into others mouths- a quick google couldnt tell me how many unjustified killings there are each year.
 

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,785
11,943
If this article is correct, only 1 cop has ever been convicted of police misconduct in Minneapolis- a cop of Somali descent who shot a white woman, Australian, Justine Ruszczyk Damond.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
a slower google tells me the same figures. can you provide others.

and of course i am not suggesting cops are never justified in killing, - careful some other posters get very offended when you put words into others mouths- a quick google couldnt tell me how many unjustified killings there are each year.

If 1004 people point a gun at a cop and die as a result, it's justified. Of course dirtbags might be shot for a variety of reasons.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,041
21,612


If 1004 people point a gun at a cop and die as a result, it's justified. Of course dirtbags might be shot for a variety of reasons.

There is some truth to that clearly, if someone raises a gun to a cop or is shooting at civilians too, there is a justifiable reason for that. However throughout this threat you seem to miss the whole point of institutional racism, and I'd argue that its more widespread at least to a certain degree throughout society.

When I was living in London, a lawyer who was living in Chelsea (I'm sure you are all aware of the affluency of that suburb), split up with his wife and barricaded himself in his house with a gun. He shot indiscriminately out of his windows at people (luckily hit no-one), some bullets hit the houses opposite going through windows etc, one bullet was found in the cot of a baby who luckily was not sleeping at the time. The cops closed off the streets and he continued to shoot at the cops, they tried to converse with him, he doesn't talk back. The cops were outside of his house for around 4 hours (a heck of a lot of time) and the only communication I think they got from him was a note posted under the door stating "tell my wife I love her". The cops having no luck with conversing with him and still being shot at decide to go in, they go in, he raises his gun so they shot him.

I'm not overstating some of these comments but in the London newspapers over the next few days, there were numerous comments stating things like, "but why did they have to shoot him, he was clearly troubled and wasn't hurting anyone", and "why didn't they just wait until he was out of ammunition", and "they had cleared the streets, he couldn't hurt anyone, they should have waited longer". I'm pretty certain these comments would have been very different had he not lived in Chelsea, and maybe lived in Brixton or Peckham etc. They gave him plenty of time (4 hours) to come out but clearly he was focused on suicide by cop.

Another case, also another white man in the UK in Reading, was in a pub telling everyone he had a shot gun and was getting very drunk. Someone called the cops who surrounded the pub, the man comes out with the "shotgun" encased in a black plastic bag. He raised it upwards pointing it at the police, who shoot him dead. When they go to check on him and remove the gun they find out that the "gun" was in fact a broken off table leg. The outrage of this was massive, people stating brutality etc. The Sun newspaper posted a photo of a shotgun covered in a black plastic bag and a table leg the same, looked exactly the same. The outrage over these 2 cases was huge.

Also, whilst I was living in London, there was a significant spike in young (mainly black) teenagers being killed in gang wars, a lot were stabbed, some were shot but almost all were in less affluent neighbourhoods, the majority of comments were things like "sad for the family, but that's what you get being in gang life etc".

The rhetoric is much the same in the US and probably here in Australia too. A crime committed by people from affluent neighbourhoods are regarded as less of a crime than those from people from a poorer background. Across America in particular this ultimately largely then falls across race grounds, hence the assumed culpability within poorer neighbourhoods that people are upto no good and therefore with their easyiness at using deadly weapons leads to far more deaths of black people.

There were always be some deaths by police that are deemed ultimately justified when their live truly was in danger, there are a lot though in the US that aren't. I mean did the 4 cops actually fear for their life from George Floyd? All the footage I've seen suggests not. Even Thou (I think that was his name) is just standing around whilst the others are on him, doesn't seem scared. Its actually a massive indictment on those cops (particularly 2 of them and Chauvin) that the only one that seemed to speak up was 5 months out of the academy, when he asked twice if they should roll him over and take pressure off, Chauvin told him off and this was the way they were doing it. Whilst not absolving him completely, anyone who is 5 months in will usually cede to someone else who has been there for 20 years if only because "experience" is deemed such an important characteristic in jobs like these.
 
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LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
^^ Great post and I agree with all of it. We saw it here with the kid at the Northcote skate park, who supposedly came from a "good" home with wealthy parents, and it caused a gigantic stink. I was acquainted with the case in detail and my sympathies were with the cops. Many asked why they e.g. didn't shoot him in the leg, but it doesn't work that way in the real world.

The other side to accusations of racism is that in the US, whites are nine times more likely to be victims of violence by blacks than vice versa. I didn't believe it at first because although one gets the impression that blacks commit proportionally more crime, this is such an incredible imbalance when population ratios are factored in that it is scarcely believable. So you've got police attitudes coloured by such information and experience and whites on tenterhooks.

I haven't read anything that points to racism in the Floyd case. Agree that they weren't under threat from Floyd. Agree that nbody should die during a routine arrest. Again, I don't know whether the knee routine is part of their training. Chauvin needs to be put on the griller, as well as these other cops present. I'm far from convinced he committed cold-blooded murder in full view of the public, but all the facts need to be tabled before anyone passes final judgement.

Cops today are required to be more accountable than ever; effective "old school" methods are frowned upon, yet we still expect to live in a society that is generally safe. Public respect for the role is decreasing, sentences are more forgiving and it's a dangerous development. Only yesterday there were two different incidents in Melbourne where crooks tried to escape by ramming police cars. Who knows to what degree they were emboldened by events in the US?

What these protests suggest and promulgate is that cops are bad, which as a rule is fundamentally wrong.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,041
21,612

That's not a great look for the police. Just stated on 9 news that he is stable in hospital so not dead which is good, and both officers are suspended.

I hadn't realised that 2 of the cops involved with the George Floyd death were so early in their careers, thought it was just the one (Thomas Lane). He was 4 days into career as an active police officer, but another one (Keung) was only 3 days in too, and both spoke up but Chauvin told them straight up that he would not let up.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,319
19,889
That's not a great look for the police. Just stated on 9 news that he is stable in hospital so not dead which is good, and both officers are suspended.

I hadn't realised that 2 of the cops involved with the George Floyd death were so early in their careers, thought it was just the one (Thomas Lane). He was 4 days into career as an active police officer, but another one (Keung) was only 3 days in too, and both spoke up but Chauvin told them straight up that he would not let up.
Chauvin a policeman for 19 years was the field training officer on the day, it makes it a tough situation for the rookie cops who are learning on the job.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,142
14,981
That's not a great look for the police. Just stated on 9 news that he is stable in hospital so not dead which is good, and both officers are suspended.

I hadn't realised that 2 of the cops involved with the George Floyd death were so early in their careers, thought it was just the one (Thomas Lane). He was 4 days into career as an active police officer, but another one (Keung) was only 3 days in too, and both spoke up but Chauvin told them straight up that he would not let up.

Good news the old bloke isn't dead. The way they just looked at him as he lay there unconscious and bleeding was chilling.

The other cops may have a case for mitigation given they are new on the job, but given the politics of it all they will do serious time anyway.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,041
21,612
Good news the old bloke isn't dead. The way they just looked at him as he lay there unconscious and bleeding was chilling.

The other cops may have a case for mitigation given they are new on the job, but given the politics of it all they will do serious time anyway.

Yeah it was the reaction that was the worst part. The officer that gave the firmest push didn't even bother to look at him, the other seemed to be concerned but was quickly moved on by the officer behind him. The fact that numerous officers just walked past was disgraceful.

I do feel for the 2 very inexperienced officers as they will always cede to the commanding officer and tend to agree they will likely do some serious time and will never get their career back. Derek Chauvin not only killed a man, he has destroyed 2 officers careers. I have heard that Thomas Lane was the 1st on the scene, and was unfortunately very quick to pull his gun out.
 
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artball

labels are for canned food
Jul 30, 2013
6,991
6,494
The fact that he is President and is exactly the sort of President you could have expected him to be really is amongst the most extraordinary and unbelievable events in world history.
President of the reality television age Big R. That's what he is...
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,041
21,612
This isn't about racism within the police departments, but this shows how screwed the laws in the US are. I hadn't heard of this at the time but saw the video on facebook yesterday and I googled it to check if it was true. At first I thought it was a prank but it soon became evident it wasn't. Anyone thats had kids know what 6 year olds are like, they sometimes struggle to explain how they feel and invariably this can lead to tantrums. Its crazy that the US do not have a law around when children become criminally culpable. In Australia it is 10.

 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
Elites create what they claim to hate (paywalled)
Greg Sheridan
The Australian
June 7, 2020


Across the US this week, 29 cities called out the National Guard to help control protests, riots and looting that broke out in response to the gruesome police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis.

The nation seemed set to burn. This time water, fire next time.

Is it fire this time? Probably not. By week’s end, the protests seemed to be moderating, at least in their violence. But the words of Reverend Al Sharpton, at a memorial for Floyd, were ominous nonetheless. Floyd was blameless in the encounter that took his life, and his death was appallingly gruesome, cruel and needless. It understandably aroused great passion and anger.

But Sharpton saw it as the essence of America — the police knee in our neck, he said, is what America has been doing to us for 400 years.

Liberal media voices rang out: America has never atoned for the original sin of slavery. Former president Barack Obama and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden both said the murder of Floyd was “systemic racism”.

But was it really? What do the facts and the long trajectory of US history really show?

Racism in the form of slavery is indeed the country’s original sin. Yet the repudiation of racism, and the positive liberal embrace of humanity which transcends race, is America’s genius.

The Declaration of Independence begins with a magnificent declaration, biblical in its majesty: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.”

Yet the author of these words, Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Hypocrisy plain and simple. Jefferson couldn’t see African-Americans as human beings deserving of human rights.

But the US is a creedal nation, a nation built, uniquely, on a creed. As the Christian gospels will shame a believer into better behaviour, so the Declaration of Independence shamed America into justice on race. The power of Jefferson’s words overcame the slave-owning example he set. For as slaves and their supporters, abolitionists of every race, campaigned against slavery, they did so by holding up to the US its own immortal creed.

The US, like most nations in the 18th century, was once institutionally racist. Is it now?

The answer is no, it is not. It has at times struggled bitterly not to be so. It fought a terrible civil war, by far the bloodiest conflict it has known, at first to ensure slavery could not expand into new territories, and then explicitly to end slavery altogether.

There was immense civil-rights work to do after that. Two of the first institutions to integrate were conservative: the military, and professional sports. The churches, though many had led the abolitionist campaign, had a mixed record. Billy Graham insisted from the start of his ministry in the 1950s that his congregations be integrated.

The progress has been spectacular. In 2008, the US elected its first black president. And even before that, back in 1996, the Republican who Democratic candidate Bill Clinton feared the most as a presidential opponent was General Colin Powell.

If European liberals sneer at the US, they might want to remind us of the names of all the black French presidents or black British prime ministers.

Since the great wave of civil-rights reforms in the US in the 1960s, black life expectancy has increased by nearly 12 years, more than white life expectancy has increased, although blacks still die 3½ years earlier than whites. According to a Brookings Institution study in 1964, 18 per cent of whites said they had a black friend. Now it’s nearly 90 per cent. In 1958, 44 per cent of whites said they would move house if a black family moved next door. By the time of the Brookings Study it was 1 per cent.

In 1968, only 50 per cent of African-American adults had graduated high school. Now it’s more than 90 per cent. In 1968, 10 per cent of blacks had college degrees. Now it’s just on a quarter.

More than half of African-Americans are middle class. At the same time, there is still striking inequality. In 2018, the median income of a black family was $US41,000, while for a white family it was $US71,000. Even that does not necessarily indicate active systemic racism operating today. Asian-Americans, many of whom are immigrants, have a substantially higher median income than whites. Asian-Americans have not suffered the tragic, historic disadvantages of African-Americans, nor have they been locked out by a racist US society.

The one measure where African-Americans have gone backwards since 1968 is the proportion of the black population in jail. This has risen from 604 per 100,000 in 1968 to 1703 per 100,000 in 2018.

Here we come upon a thorny knot of the most difficult problems. As President Donald Trump and his administration assert, the figures do not support the idea that US police forces are systemically racist, despite the shocking murder of Floyd. On the other hand, US society has organised itself in a way that is distinctly but unintentionally disadvantageous to blacks and that makes it difficult for blacks to escape these disadvantages.

I don’t believe this is racism at work. I have lived in the US on four separate occasions, as this paper’s Washington correspondent in 1986 and 1987, and for periods of several months each in three different attachments to US think tanks. Every time, I have lived in a racially diverse apartment building. I’ve had friends of every ethnic background. I have spent probably thousands of hours in the company of conservative Republicans and conservative Christians. I have never heard a single one ever make a racially derogatory remark.

That experience is surely subjective, but it’s worth something.

What do the figures tell us? Last year, police killed 10 unarmed African-Americans. This is in a nation of 330 million people. It’s difficult for people to remember just how big a number 330 million is. It will always throw up tragic and terrible cases and some abuses. A few terrible incidents, in this media and internet-dominated age, can look like a national pattern when they are nothing of the kind.

In any year of the past half dozen, the 800,000 police across the US’s 18,000 separate police forces will kill about 1000 people. One reason that figure is so high is because of America’s gun culture. Every person a US cop pulls over or talks to could likely be carrying a gun. In the four years from 2000, 250 police were killed in the line of duty. Blue lives matter too.

Generally, about twice as many whites are killed as blacks, and blacks make up about a quarter of those killed. Given that blacks are 13 per cent of the US population, that establishes that they die in disproportionately large numbers. But given that African-Americans commit more than half the homicides in the US and an even higher proportion of the robberies, they come into difficult contact with the police much more often than whites do.

If the police retreat into passive policing, it will be law-abiding African-Americans in high-crime neighbourhoods who suffer most.

That’s not to say there is no racism. Obviously, white racism survives in the US. Racism, I suspect, is an inherent human evil. It must always be opposed but can never be totally eradicated. There is no part of US law — or respectable US opinion — that sanctions racism. The national convulsion the Floyd killing has provoked indicates that very few in the US think it’s OK. When violence against blacks was more routine, as in pre-civil rights parts of the old Confederacy, it did not cause a national outrage.

New York’s Chief of Police Terence Monahan gave a powerful TV interview this week in which he pointed out that his police force is a “majority minority” — that is, white officers are less than half his force. He denied absolutely that he or his officers were racist. He condemned the killing of Floyd and pointed out, pretty convincingly, that his officers didn’t do it. Not only that, they have often died in defence of minority community members. Yet 170 of his officers have been injured, some seriously and often with intent, by rioters acting violently over the past week.

Sometimes Trump talks about race in a way that is unhelpful or stupid or gauche. When he tells congresswomen of African heritage that “they should go back where they came from”, that is offensive. And when he told protesters that if they breached the White House fence they would be met by “vicious dogs and ominous weapons”, that was needlessly bombastic.

But Trump is assuredly not a systematic racist. And as with many populists, much that he says is common sense. It was foolish of him to suggest this week that he would override states and use the Insurrection Act to deploy regular troops to US cities to quell riots. The military, though generally pro-Republican, absolutely hates the way Trump sometimes tries to politicise them.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
33,186
11,546
Melbourne
(continued...)

Yet the demonisation of Trump is unreasonable and wildly exaggerated, and it makes its own contribution to every problem the US faces. Susan Rice, Obama’s national security adviser, tweeted that Trump “openly incites the murder of his fellow Americans”. That is deeply misleading, grossly irresponsible and can only contribute to a dangerous over-reaction from protesters, which will in turn produce its own counter-reaction. This is the tenor of much of the comment on CNN and in much of the mainstream American media. It is at least as bad as anything Trump says or does and contributes to the prevailing sense of crisis, drama and mutual and inexplicable hatreds.

Some commentators talk of the return of the “riot ideology” of the 1960s. In 1967, liberal magazine The New Republic ran an editorial that said: “Terrifying as the looting, the shooting, the arson are, they could mean a gain for the nation if, as a result, white America were shocked into looking at itself.”

This is liberal foolishness at its most extreme. And it made a big comeback this week.

There is no doubt African-Americans are seriously disadvantaged, and that this disadvantage arises from the brutal history their forebears suffered. If the liberal Left tell them there is no hope because of systemic racism — that their only recourse is defiance and civil disobedience, that personal agency in work and education mean nothing whereas identity politics is everything — then this will have tragic consequences. Similarly, if the message of liberal ideology is that all white people are complicit in racism and enjoy white privilege, that may work OK as a meaningless affectation for affluent whites living in rich neighbourhoods where they never meet street crime, but it will cause suppurating retaliatory resentment among working-class, unemployed and otherwise disadvantaged whites. It’s a recipe for needless racial polarisation.

Many African-Americans, like many poor people in the US generally, are caught in the intersection of several US policy mistakes. The US ties health insurance to jobs. If you don’t have a job, or don’t have a well-paid job, you cannot afford health insurance. That means you don’t go to the doctor when you’re sick. This is one reason African-Americans have suffered so badly from COVID-19.

Globalisation has contributed to the loss of blue-collar jobs, which are great entry-level jobs. Truck driving is one of the last big employers of non-college graduates that pays a living wage. This dynamic hurts blacks the most.

African-Americans are concentrated in impoverished inner cities. The public schools are wretched and the power of the teachers’ unions makes their reform all but impossible. In wealthier districts, the schools are better.

The legal system, while not formally racial in orientation, punishes minor crimes that blacks typically commit much more heavily than minor crimes that whites typically commit. Which white American will tell you they didn’t smoke pot at college? But this never leads to jail.

And here is the final tragic irony, more bitter than any other. Before COVID-19 struck, Trump was actually delivering for African-Americans. Their unemployment rate, at just over 5 per cent, was the lowest in history.

Black poverty had declined substantially under the Trump administration. Black incarceration also declined under Trump. People with jobs don’t go to jail so much.

Despite his reactionary reputation, Trump sponsored and signed the First Step Act, which got thousands of non-violent black offenders out of prison.

The US is not systemically racist. Despite its history, it is systemically anti-racist. If the liberal elites, who more or less hate the US on principle, push the systemic racism line long enough and hysterically enough, they may create the reality they claim to oppose.
 
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