U.S Presidential Election | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • If you are having trouble logging in to the forum please contact [email protected] // When reseting your password or awaiting confirmation please check that your email is correct and also your junk/spam emails.
  • IMPORTANT! Our inbox is full of email errors from members who have not updated their emails, please follow the instructions on how to update here
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

U.S Presidential Election

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
12,450
1,926
This thread appears to have gone off its rightful path, a debate about the success or otherwise of Trump's presidency. though i can understand why our Trump supporters may not want that debate to continue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Coburgtiger

Tiger Champion
May 7, 2012
3,566
2,127
No need. Your posts are really thoughtful. And I totally agree with much of what you say. Who could argue against being aware of and acting on social injustices? Like anything as ideas develop they need to be constantly challenged and vigorously for them to maintain integrity. Wokeness is no different. It has to endure critical thinking.
The woke left will tell everyone that it's a woman's right to wear a burqa if she so chooses. And of course it is. They will say it's cultural or religious. And that people who wear a burqa are from a minority community. But they won't tell everyone that the burqa is the flag of one of the most hateful, misogynistic, backward ultra conservative fascist philosophies still on the planet and as such promotes subjugation and dehumanisation of women.
That would be viewed through the woke lens as bigoted or racist ignorance when it is infact just a representation of fact.
What are you on about?

That's got absolutely nothing to do with being 'woke'.

Pretty much every flag, dress, symbol, religion or culture has been used in some hateful, violent, bigoted or racist way.

The aim is to not be those things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
14,969
10,450
No need. Your posts are really thoughtful. And I totally agree with much of what you say. Who could argue against being aware of and acting on social injustices? Like anything as ideas develop they need to be constantly challenged and vigorously for them to maintain integrity. Wokeness is no different. It has to endure critical thinking.
The woke left will tell everyone that it's a woman's right to wear a burqa if she so chooses. And of course it is. They will say it's cultural or religious. And that people who wear a burqa are from a minority community. But they won't tell everyone that the burqa is the flag of one of the most hateful, misogynistic, backward ultra conservative fascist philosophies still on the planet and as such promotes subjugation and dehumanisation of women.
That would be viewed through the woke lens as bigoted or racist ignorance when it is infact just a representation of fact.

I understand what you are saying, but disagree.

The original meaning of 'woke' is to move into a level of sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression

So they would understand what a burka was better than anyone.

You are still slipping into the right wing appropriation of the term 'woke', which is a version of the PC-police-gone-mad derision.

The far right have a really long history of appropriating, misconstruing and weaponising peaceful, intellectual, cultural symbols and terms.

Swastika, eureka flag, norse mythical stuff.

Donald trump has been sued by heaps of artists including tom petty, rolling stones, neil young, for misappropriating their music.

Its kind of surprising he didnt play NWA at his Jan 6 rally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,355
711
Brisbane
No dude, don't let amnesia get you. You said on p64 of this thread.
It is a case of poor communication on my part, I didn't mean to suggest the discussion was on p64.

You do argue logically and state a clear position without misrepresenting others, which I appreciate. And you call me out if I'm inconsistent which is also valuable. But I think a reliance on pure logic is not necessarily always the best approach - a priori assumptions can sink an otherwise perfectly logical and rational argument. This is philosophy 101. Agree that arguing and explaining helps.
Criticising an argument by challenging a priori assumptions is still using logic :)

I understand your point on "all politicians" - there is some truth in that. There is a lot of truth in the libertarian critique of the whole warfare/welfare state thing, for example. And a perfect libertarian society is logical and would seem to function well. But life isn't like that.
Agree life isn't like that because a critical mass of people don't value liberty. A large libertarian society is not an impossibility like a large communist society is an impossibility (I'm talking about one that doesn't use prices and has no prices from other regions with market economies to use in their absence).

I think the historical fact of what has happened in the US with Covid and the subsequent farcical attempt to subvert democracy since the election was called in early November prove exactly what most of us have been saying - Trump doesn't learn, he always acts the same way, if a disaster occurs he can't be relied on, he burns friends and allies without a second thought, he doesn't read, doesn't understand the Constitution and doesn't care that he doesn't understand.
A lot of truth in that sure.

TDS is a thing. I for one am revelling in the fact that this guy has failed the US in the biggest and most embarrassing way possible. He may yet be impeached, he may yet go to jail, he may yet lose a lot of his businesses so I hope he dies knowing that period of his life that should have been his greatest achievement turned out to be his most abysmal failure.

It's true, I just don't like the guy.
Why revel in it though? Doesn't seem a healthy attitude.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,385
6,953
It is a case of poor communication on my part, I didn't mean to suggest the discussion was on p64.


Criticising an argument by challenging a priori assumptions is still using logic :)


Agree life isn't like that because a critical mass of people don't value liberty. A large libertarian society is not an impossibility like a large communist society is an impossibility (I'm talking about one that doesn't use prices and has no prices from other regions with market economies to use in their absence).


A lot of truth in that sure.


Why revel in it though? Doesn't seem a healthy attitude.

Thanks for the reply, no worries about the Syria confusion.

Revelling is a good word, although I must remember there is a major human cost to Trump's ineptitude. For example, many of those 400K dead Americans might still be alive with a more competent President.

Its because he always took great pleasure in ridiculing those who disagreed with him, or were his political enemies. And it's always good to be proved right. Corrupt, inept, anti-democratic, anti-Constitution, narcissistic. He's proved me right a thousand times in the last two months. Yeah, I'm smug about it.

Some people deserve what they get, I suppose that's what I'm saying.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,355
711
Brisbane
Thanks for the reply, no worries about the Syria confusion.

Revelling is a good word, although I must remember there is a major human cost to Trump's ineptitude. For example, many of those 400K dead Americans might still be alive with a more competent President.

Its because he always took great pleasure in ridiculing those who disagreed with him, or were his political enemies. And it's always good to be proved right. Corrupt, inept, anti-democratic, anti-Constitution, narcissistic. He's proved me right a thousand times in the last two months. Yeah, I'm smug about it.

Some people deserve what they get, I suppose that's what I'm saying.
I mean, what's to hang your hat on? They are all like that ultimately ;)
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,385
6,953
I mean, what's to hang your hat on? They are all like that ultimately ;)
You have to admit, Trump's going down about as spectacularly as the Hindenburg. It's a three month long train crash except 100 times more awkward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,182
155
I understand what you are saying, but disagree.

The original meaning of 'woke' is to move into a level of sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression

So they would understand what a burka was better than anyone.

You are still slipping into the right wing appropriation of the term 'woke', which is a version of the PC-police-gone-mad derision.

The far right have a really long history of appropriating, misconstruing and weaponising peaceful, intellectual, cultural symbols and terms.

Swastika, eureka flag, norse mythical stuff.

Donald trump has been sued by heaps of artists including tom petty, rolling stones, neil young, for misappropriating their music.

Its kind of surprising he didnt play NWA at his Jan 6 rally.

Disagreeing is good!!!

Woke - ‘a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression.’

My slipping into the right wing appropriation of the term 'woke' is a really interesting observation and perhaps one that I should be more aware of but perhaps that observation in itself is also a little void of the nuance you speak of. How can a word in which a key characteristic is ‘nuance’ be so reduced to mean only just one thing or another depending on your politics? It's got to be more nuanced.

Not calling out the burqa for what it is is not a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression. For the best intentioned or the woke it may be a desire to not offend but any honest broker knows what the burqa stands for. If the far right call it for what it is – misogynous and shameful etc and even if they do so cynically for self serving political mileage - it doesn’t mean that the burqa automatically acquires some mystical redeeming qualities. Women are either equal human beings or they are not.

Maybe we all import our own meaning into words which just confuses things.
Anyway hope you keep posting on this thread because you have much to offer and I enjoy reading and thinking about your posts.

Bask on US election - really interesting podcast from the New York Times on Trumplodytes and how they’re adapting to de-platforming by Facebook, Twitter etc Things aint going to get better it seems.
Btw, the 'Daily' is an excellent free and highly addictive podcast from the NYTimes. I'm sure you'll enjoy.

whoops forgot the link. Here it is:

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,182
155
Yes.

And like all religions Islam can be applied in a fundamentalist, archaic way or in a modern, liberal way.
yeah, and isn't our Bachar just the most evolved true believer in Islam you've ever witnessed? As an atheist, I am in total awe of that man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,639
8,391
He's great, but I've met plenty of Muslims like that.
Heh, and you'd see them every where you look.

I think sometimes people forget Australia's closest neighbour is also the largest Muslim country in the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
14,969
10,450
Maybe we all import our own meaning into words which just confuses things.

pretty fine line between cultural appropriation for the purpose of hatred,

and importing meaning.

sounds a bit like alternative facts to me?
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,639
8,391
Alternative view of Trump’s demise.

Here's another view by a US political news set that is fairly balanced, as opposed to Hildebrand who has proven himself to be a Chris Kenny wannabe trying too hard to do nothing but shouting down anything his paymasters don’t like hearing

 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user