U.S Presidential Election

[1eyedtiger]

You have a pretty twisted idea of morality if you consider it immoral to avoid paying someone that is holding a gun to your head. You don't need a monopoly on violence for society to function, and you certainly don't need it to provide infrastructure and services.

So I'm twisted by believing that our have a moral obligation to do my bit for the society I belong to? It's not about having a gun pointed to your head and forced to pay taxes. It's about providing common infrastructure and services. You do remember health, education and defence to name a few? Maybe you'd prefer a 'user pays' world were only the wealthy are educated or have access to decent health care? The rest of us can go back to cave painting or slavery. In fact, slavery is a great idea. Solves many social and economic problems facing the world today. The wealthy minority only has to turn a blind eye to 'disposal' of unproductive slaves and they have it all set.

Tell me, why do most people work for a living? It's the exact same 'gun' that you speak of.

 

[AngryAnt]

I don't need to try anything. Go back to my original post and you will notice the disclaimer "supposedly" which means take it with a grain of whatever
Anything I put up you'll just brush off as clickbait tripe or far right hysteria or whatever. You asked foursome sources, I provided some.

Did you say foursome? :hihi

But seriously, the articles you linked showed nothing of your premise that they use the CF for personal gain. They don't - except for the publicity and other more intangible benefits. But keep on believing dude.

Some may think Bill and Hilary are victims, there's plenty who would disagree. Me among them, they're a pair of sleaze bags of the highest order.
And no I don't hold Trump up as any paragon either.

I don't think they are victims by any stretch. They are in the elite, politically and financially. I don't think of them as sleazebags though - and I've seen no real compelling evidence that they've done anything criminal or reprehensible - and vague assertions from dubious sources don't cut it for me, sorry.

Other's may take a "there's no smoke without fire" approach but to me that's just intellectual laziness.

 

[Willo]

Did you say foursome?

I don't think they are victims by any stretch. They are in the elite, politically and financially. I don't think of them as sleazebags though - and I've seen no real compelling evidence that they've done anything criminal or reprehensible - and vague assertions from dubious sources don't cut if for me, sorry.

Other's may take a "there's no smoke without fire" approach but to me that's just intellectual laziness.

*foursome* bloody predictive text without spell checking it. (But in Bills case more likely a ménage a trois)

Vague assertions? I believe there's plenty more to come out. Time will tell.
Intellectual laziness? There are plenty of conspiracy theories Some may not be conspiracies but fact.

 

[AngryAnt]

*foursome* bloody predictive text without spell checking it. (But in Bills case more likely a ménage a trois)

:hihi

Vague assertions? I believe there's plenty more to come out. Time will tell.
Intellectual laziness? There are plenty of conspiracy theories Some may not be conspiracies but fact.

Right... they "may be" a lot of things, but so far no-one's proved a thing. And in HRC's case, that's with hostile Republican special prosecuters and inquiries trying to take her down for 20 years. I reckon if there was anything significant, they would have found it by now. But hey, I'm an "evidence" sort of guy. I kind of need that before I'm going to hang anyone, even the Donald.

Anyway, time will tell, as you say.

 

[Giardiasis]

So I'm twisted by believing that our have a moral obligation to do my bit for the society I belong to? It's not about having a gun pointed to your head and forced to pay taxes. It's about providing common infrastructure and services. You do remember health, education and defence to name a few? Maybe you'd prefer a 'user pays' world were only the wealthy are educated or have access to decent health care? The rest of us can go back to cave painting or slavery. In fact, slavery is a great idea. Solves many social and economic problems facing the world today. The wealthy minority only has to turn a blind eye to 'disposal' of unproductive slaves and they have it all set.

Tell me, why do most people work for a living? It's the exact same 'gun' that you speak of.

Drop the sophistry mate. If you want to do your bit for society in a way that you deem important then that's fine, but calling someone immoral for not bowing down to your or the government's idea of what doing your bit means is twisted. The government wastes money like it's going out of fashion, having money in the hands of private individuals is without a doubt more beneficial for society than government redistribution.

Yes I prefer a user pays world as that is the only moral choice. You favour an immoral system of violent coercion. Slavery is the total opposite of libertarianism, which has as its core the non-aggression principle. You don't understand economics, so it isn't a surprise that you'd start reeling off such nonsense that without the government gun, the masses would be reduced to penury. Learn some history.

Equating nature with the government gun is ridiculous, the laws of nature are objective facts of reality, the government is a concept in your mind. The government gun doesn't replace nature, nature is always there.

 

[AngryAnt]

Without buying into the pro/anti libertarian debate here, I find US politics interesting because the country was founded on many semi-Libertarian ideals - no taxation without representation for example - the desire to break free from a tyrannical government (England) taxing and controlling unfairly from far away. Many people owned slaves then and I find it ironic that they railed against the injustice of a governmental slavery but were unable to apply that thinking to their own treatment of other human beings who were much closer at hand. But anyway, the Declaration of Independence has a lot to say about this and we Australians don't really get it or that document's significance in American political culture... perhaps because we never had a revolution and an armed struggle to break away from ol' Blighty. Similarly this is why we don't really understand the historical importance of the 2nd Amendment - the right to bear arms... again this comes from the armed struggle of the population against the tyrannical British and their will not to be subjugated unjustly again. O'course, now it just looks plumb crazy given the prevalence of Glocks and AKs but you know...

 

[Sintiger]

Why are people so concerned with the amount of tax Trump has paid? It may not be moral but as long as he works within the law. The laws were proposed, debated and passed by career politicians like Clinton. If it's so bad, why did the career politicians word the tax laws the way they did? Now who are the crooks?

That's one view. If it is a correct one why then was and is he so reluctant to release his tax returns ?

 

[Giardiasis]

why then was and is he so reluctant to release his tax returns ?

Because he is currently being audited by the IRS. Not a clever move to release his tax returns during an investigation.

 

[AngryAnt]

Because he is currently being audited by the IRS. Not a clever move to release his tax returns during an investigation.

Richard Nixon released his tax returns while being audited.
He hasn't released his pre 2009 returns which even Trump's own attorney has admitted are not subject to audit.
He has never released the official Audit Letter from the IRS that the IRS sends to all persons subject to tax audit, despite being asked by numerous media outlets.
His lawyers have claimed his business affairs are "under examination" by the IRS - note the careful avoidance of the term "audit" - because he isn't actually being audited.

http://www.newsweek.com/where-trump-irs-tax-audit-letter-488904

So as usual it's all obfuscation and lies from the Donald.

 

[Giardiasis]

So as usual it's all obfuscation and lies from the Donald.

Well that's just speculation on your part. Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're wrong.

 

[TigerForce]

Hopefully common sense will prevail on Wednesday morning as Trump is making Dubya look good as a Prez.

 

[AngryAnt]

Well that's just speculation on your part. Perhaps you're right, perhaps you're wrong.

Nixon showing his tax returns under audit - it happened, not speculation.
Pre-2009 tax returns are not even claimed to be under audit, so no reason why he can't show those. Not speculation.
He's never shown the official audit letter. Not speculation.
His lawyers carefully avoided using term term "audit" - because presumably they are good lawyers, and therefore don't want to lie. Not speculation.

What else you got G?

 

[Giardiasis]

Nixon showing his tax returns under audit - it happened, not speculation.
Pre-2009 tax returns are not even claimed to be under audit, so no reason why he can't show those. Not speculation.
He's never shown the official audit letter. Not speculation.
His lawyers carefully avoided using term term "audit" - because presumably they are good lawyers, and therefore don't want to lie. Not speculation.

What else you got G?

Trump isn't saying he can't release them, he's saying he has been advised not to. He has even said he'll release them during the audit if Clinton releases the thousands of emails she deleted.

He has argued that the pre 2009 information remains relevant to the post 2009 audit. You seem happy to accept that pre 2009 is not being audited but not that post 2009 is being audited. Why accept anything as truth from people you think are lying?

You are speculating that he is lying about the audit. The evidence you have provided doesn't prove that. I think you have a good argument about obfuscation.

 

[jb03]

Trump isn't saying he can't release them, he's saying he has been advised not to.

C'mon G, even you don't believe that is the reason.

 

[Giardiasis]

C'mon G, even you don't believe that is the reason.

What, that he has been advised not to release his tax returns while under an audit?

 

[jb03]

What, that he has been advised not to release his tax returns while under an audit?

yes

 

[Sintiger]

Because he is currently being audited by the IRS. Not a clever move to release his tax returns during an investigation.

Interesting debate you guys had over this but in reality the reason he hasn't released them is because it will show he hasn't paid tax for years, if ever.
Leaving aside any moral argument, as I know you believe taxes are theft anyway, Trump knows that even his band of deplorables may see a call to make America great again from a person who claims to be very rich and pays no taxes to be hypocritical.
The audit excuse is just that, an excuse. He is running for President.
The other reason many believe is part of it is that he doesn't want financial experts combing over his financials because it will reveal he isn't as rich as he says he is, in other words ..vanity

 

[Giardiasis]

yes

If he is indeed under audit, then of course I do.

http://lawnewz.com/politics/legal-experts-side-with-trump-it-would-be-totally-stupid-to-release-his-taxes-during-audit/

 

[Giardiasis]

Actually ST in reality you are speculating like Antman. It's curious for you to use the word "deplorables" given how anti-labels you've been in the past. I thought you were above ad hominem? Tisk tisk.

 

[Midsy]

Taxes? Who cares?!

The man's a goddam lunatic. His speech today was something to behold.