U.S Presidential Election | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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U.S Presidential Election

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
No dude, don't let amnesia get you. You said on p64 of this thread.
It is a case of poor communication on my part, I didn't mean to suggest the discussion was on p64.

You do argue logically and state a clear position without misrepresenting others, which I appreciate. And you call me out if I'm inconsistent which is also valuable. But I think a reliance on pure logic is not necessarily always the best approach - a priori assumptions can sink an otherwise perfectly logical and rational argument. This is philosophy 101. Agree that arguing and explaining helps.
Criticising an argument by challenging a priori assumptions is still using logic :)

I understand your point on "all politicians" - there is some truth in that. There is a lot of truth in the libertarian critique of the whole warfare/welfare state thing, for example. And a perfect libertarian society is logical and would seem to function well. But life isn't like that.
Agree life isn't like that because a critical mass of people don't value liberty. A large libertarian society is not an impossibility like a large communist society is an impossibility (I'm talking about one that doesn't use prices and has no prices from other regions with market economies to use in their absence).

I think the historical fact of what has happened in the US with Covid and the subsequent farcical attempt to subvert democracy since the election was called in early November prove exactly what most of us have been saying - Trump doesn't learn, he always acts the same way, if a disaster occurs he can't be relied on, he burns friends and allies without a second thought, he doesn't read, doesn't understand the Constitution and doesn't care that he doesn't understand.
A lot of truth in that sure.

TDS is a thing. I for one am revelling in the fact that this guy has failed the US in the biggest and most embarrassing way possible. He may yet be impeached, he may yet go to jail, he may yet lose a lot of his businesses so I hope he dies knowing that period of his life that should have been his greatest achievement turned out to be his most abysmal failure.

It's true, I just don't like the guy.
Why revel in it though? Doesn't seem a healthy attitude.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,017
14,792
It is a case of poor communication on my part, I didn't mean to suggest the discussion was on p64.


Criticising an argument by challenging a priori assumptions is still using logic :)


Agree life isn't like that because a critical mass of people don't value liberty. A large libertarian society is not an impossibility like a large communist society is an impossibility (I'm talking about one that doesn't use prices and has no prices from other regions with market economies to use in their absence).


A lot of truth in that sure.


Why revel in it though? Doesn't seem a healthy attitude.

Thanks for the reply, no worries about the Syria confusion.

Revelling is a good word, although I must remember there is a major human cost to Trump's ineptitude. For example, many of those 400K dead Americans might still be alive with a more competent President.

Its because he always took great pleasure in ridiculing those who disagreed with him, or were his political enemies. And it's always good to be proved right. Corrupt, inept, anti-democratic, anti-Constitution, narcissistic. He's proved me right a thousand times in the last two months. Yeah, I'm smug about it.

Some people deserve what they get, I suppose that's what I'm saying.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
Thanks for the reply, no worries about the Syria confusion.

Revelling is a good word, although I must remember there is a major human cost to Trump's ineptitude. For example, many of those 400K dead Americans might still be alive with a more competent President.

Its because he always took great pleasure in ridiculing those who disagreed with him, or were his political enemies. And it's always good to be proved right. Corrupt, inept, anti-democratic, anti-Constitution, narcissistic. He's proved me right a thousand times in the last two months. Yeah, I'm smug about it.

Some people deserve what they get, I suppose that's what I'm saying.
I mean, what's to hang your hat on? They are all like that ultimately ;)
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,017
14,792
I mean, what's to hang your hat on? They are all like that ultimately ;)
You have to admit, Trump's going down about as spectacularly as the Hindenburg. It's a three month long train crash except 100 times more awkward.
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,386
433
I understand what you are saying, but disagree.

The original meaning of 'woke' is to move into a level of sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression

So they would understand what a burka was better than anyone.

You are still slipping into the right wing appropriation of the term 'woke', which is a version of the PC-police-gone-mad derision.

The far right have a really long history of appropriating, misconstruing and weaponising peaceful, intellectual, cultural symbols and terms.

Swastika, eureka flag, norse mythical stuff.

Donald trump has been sued by heaps of artists including tom petty, rolling stones, neil young, for misappropriating their music.

Its kind of surprising he didnt play NWA at his Jan 6 rally.

Disagreeing is good!!!

Woke - ‘a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression.’

My slipping into the right wing appropriation of the term 'woke' is a really interesting observation and perhaps one that I should be more aware of but perhaps that observation in itself is also a little void of the nuance you speak of. How can a word in which a key characteristic is ‘nuance’ be so reduced to mean only just one thing or another depending on your politics? It's got to be more nuanced.

Not calling out the burqa for what it is is not a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of oppression. For the best intentioned or the woke it may be a desire to not offend but any honest broker knows what the burqa stands for. If the far right call it for what it is – misogynous and shameful etc and even if they do so cynically for self serving political mileage - it doesn’t mean that the burqa automatically acquires some mystical redeeming qualities. Women are either equal human beings or they are not.

Maybe we all import our own meaning into words which just confuses things.
Anyway hope you keep posting on this thread because you have much to offer and I enjoy reading and thinking about your posts.

Bask on US election - really interesting podcast from the New York Times on Trumplodytes and how they’re adapting to de-platforming by Facebook, Twitter etc Things aint going to get better it seems.
Btw, the 'Daily' is an excellent free and highly addictive podcast from the NYTimes. I'm sure you'll enjoy.

whoops forgot the link. Here it is:

 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,386
433
Yes.

And like all religions Islam can be applied in a fundamentalist, archaic way or in a modern, liberal way.
yeah, and isn't our Bachar just the most evolved true believer in Islam you've ever witnessed? As an atheist, I am in total awe of that man.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,113
18,923
He's great, but I've met plenty of Muslims like that.
Heh, and you'd see them every where you look.

I think sometimes people forget Australia's closest neighbour is also the largest Muslim country in the world.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,434
25,771
Maybe we all import our own meaning into words which just confuses things.

pretty fine line between cultural appropriation for the purpose of hatred,

and importing meaning.

sounds a bit like alternative facts to me?
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,113
18,923
Alternative view of Trump’s demise.

Here's another view by a US political news set that is fairly balanced, as opposed to Hildebrand who has proven himself to be a Chris Kenny wannabe trying too hard to do nothing but shouting down anything his paymasters don’t like hearing

 
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snags

Tiger Superstar
Oct 28, 2005
1,715
2,045
You have to admit, Trump's going down about as spectacularly as the Hindenburg. It's a three month long train crash except 100 times more awkward.
With a bit of luck the blimp hasn’t even caught fire yet. Can’t wait for the investigations into his affairs to start in earnest. I want to see this bad boy crash and burn.
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,199
17,593
Camberwell
Yes, Coleman Hughes is an interesting young fella to listen to. Very intelligently articulate and nuanced in the way he presents his views. Which is very refreshing compared to much of the dogmatic noise surrounding him. I quite like listening to him.

He doesn't deny that there are racial elements and contexts to the challenges blacks in the US face. But he doesn't see race as absolute as BLM activists and supporters see it. To him, it is far more nuanced. He sees class as a much bigger contributing factor in the disparity between rich and poor in the US. And by focusing so heavily on the racial element it harms greatly any chance of building a united movement of solidarity across the working and poor classes. It turns the various tribal groups of poor people against each other fighting for the last scraps on the table. Basically, it plays into the hands of those very few extremely wealthy and/or politically powerful at the top of the tree, that seek to divide and conquer as a tool to hold onto their position.

The wealthy plantation class in the southern states knew this back in the 18th and 19th centuries. They feared greatly that the huge (desperately poor) white underclass would join with the black slaves as a united movement of poor, powerless people and over run their rule. This was one motivating factor for the ruling class developing a strict legal framework of segregation to avoid integration between poor whites and blacks. And in a cruel twist of irony, a lot of this so called post-modern phenomenon of social justice has the same divide and conquer effect.

This is why I view with great suspicion a lot of the liberal corporate class, celebrity class and high ranking bureaucrats going so fanatically down the social justice rabbit hole. There is the pretense that they are doing it for altruistic reasons, or maybe they have deluded themselves into a view that they are. When in actual fact there is a not insignificant narcissistic motivation towards emotional and moral validation as opposed to anything actually practical for the greater good. Essentially it's the old 'look over there' fake pass tactic. They have disproportionate wealth and/or political power that they don't want to relinquish, so are willing to throw one group of poorer, less powerful people under the bus as a scape goat, which keeps in place a system to perpetuate their power.

And don't get me wrong, Trump does the exactly the same thing. He is a man of no principles. He simply spotted a disillusioned group, stoked up the flames of their discontent - told them exactly what they wanted to hear (whether he could achieve any of the rhetoric in actual practical terms or not) as a divide and conquer tactic. But the liberal establishment I spoke of above handed him this disillusionment on a plate. They actually contributed greatly to a climate where a totally unsuitable candidate like Trump could be elected. They are in complete denial or totally blind to it.
That is all one perspective and it is valid to have these views however in my experience they sometimes get translated into an assumption that people who have views that are heavily weighted on social justice are a part of this “liberal corporate class”.
My views on many things have been moulded by my experiences but I have always passionately believed in the equal rights of every human being and felt that we have an individual responsibility to support that. There are many people who feel that way but I think that these views sometimes get diminished by the assumption that everyone who holds them is part of some left wing elite.
There are some who fall into that category but they should not be used as an excuse to diminish the views of others.
The same could be said of any stereotyping of people who hold particular views of course
 
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tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
4,549
5,154
In agreement with Sin,s post, and a further thought is the habit of boxing people into left or right and then speaking for the other side eg the left cultural elite wine drinkers want to abolish boys and girls toilets...


We all have a plurality of values that means labels are worthless.
I have learnt a lot on this thread.
I also think when we start saying the woke left say... or the right believe... and so start speaking for others not ourselves then we are bound to get it wrong
 
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tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
4,549
5,154
As for woke, its like the schoolyard taunt to the smart kid in class who answers the teacher,s questions.
"Ha ha you are so woke so shut up"

Its a bully boy tactic.
Woke to being aware of historical, privilege, context, systemic disadvantage
Woke to the interconnectedness of it all.
Woke to the hypernuanced nature of society

Aint nuthin wrong with woke, sometimes its just nerdy. And if you,re not interested then let it slide
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,434
25,771
As for woke, its like the schoolyard taunt to the smart kid in class who answers the teacher,s questions.
"Ha ha you are so woke so shut up"

Its a bully boy tactic.

To take that further, the woke person getting bullied,

Could poke out there tongue and go

'Well at least im not asleep ..... plus i dont have really stupid ugly nordic tattoes on my face ..... and im not a *smile*'
 

artball

labels are for canned food
Jul 30, 2013
6,889
6,302
With a bit of luck the blimp hasn’t even caught fire yet. Can’t wait for the investigations into his affairs to start in earnest. I want to see this bad boy crash and burn.
the blimp has caught fire, look at his orange face .. he's scrambling for air at the moment, and his two-bit family ..