Unfair critism of players. The buck stops with Walle$$ and co.

[GoodOne]

It was an insipid performance by all. Coaches, players and probably orange boy (my guess is they were still frozen). Why does there always have to be someone who takes the ultimate responsibility? Good sides have leaders, leaders implore you to have pride for the jumper. What I don't understand is how we can play a team who is in a similar position to us ladder-wise with everything on the line, finals, revenge for having a 1win 9 loss record against them, a long-time player in his 250th game, everything to win for, and we come out and dish out some of the worst footy you'd see. One thing I was hoping and thought I'd seen glimpses of is the pride, never-say-die, bust your gut for your teammate attitude that makes a footy club. Instead I see no respect given to a 300 game player, allowing him to pick the ball up close to the wing and casually bounce his way into the forward 50 and without any pressure kick through an inspirational goal. The coach does not need to instill pride into the players. If he does, then they dont belong at the club.

It's a team game, its a team effort, the blame lies with 22 players and a coaching panel. They need to learn from this. Thought the lesson had been learnt. Obviously not.

 

[tigerjoe]

It was an insipid performance by all. Coaches, players and probably orange boy (my guess is they were still frozen). Why does there always have to be someone who takes the ultimate responsibility? Good sides have leaders, leaders implore you to have pride for the jumper. What I don't understand is how we can play a team who is in a similar position to us ladder-wise with everything on the line, finals, revenge for having a 1win 9 loss record against them, a long-time player in his 250th game, everything to win for, and we come out and dish out some of the worst footy you'd see. One thing I was hoping and thought I'd seen glimpses of is the pride, never-say-die, bust your gut for your teammate attitude that makes a footy club. Instead I see no respect given to a 300 game player, allowing him to pick the ball up close to the wing and casually bounce his way into the forward 50 and without any pressure kick through an inspirational goal. The coach does not need to instill pride into the players. If he does, then they dont belong at the club.

It's a team game, its a team effort, the blame lies with 22 players and a coaching panel. They need to learn from this. Thought the lesson had been learnt. Obviously not.

Your right Goodone, but take it a step further.

We have a young list, they need direction and guidance.

Apart from Richo and maybe Browny on field, leaders who show the way...............there aren't many others are there?

That's when it is up to Wallace and his assistants.

A game that has so much importance (just like the 100G game), why is it that Adelaide can show so much for Macleod and their club, and we can show jack schiesen in these games?

FFS we had no go, no never give up attitude. If the players aren't going to show this, it's up to Wallace to replace them.

Has he done this?

 

[The_General]

Why did he pick them in the first place General if they werent going to be motivated or were going to sh!t themselves.

He should have been good enough to pick a side that was at least going to make a fight of it. He then had from Thursday to get them in the right frame of mind for the game.

Well, these big games only come around every so often for Richmond. We're not good enough to have these crucial games regularly, and it's just a matter of finding out which players will stand up for you when it counts. Some players, you would say we should already know about. The players that didn't fire a shot yesterday, we should be trying to trade or delist. Premierships are about playing big games, if you can't get yourself up for that, then off you go.

Another little story to consider: Richo had an article in the age a couple of years ago talking about Northey. Northey was ranting and raving and geeing people up, talking about RFC being the underdogs, and how the AFL was trying to bury the tigers, and how they had to fight for their lives otherwise they'd disappear. He left the room with fire in his eyes and belly. After he did, someone (can't remember who) turned around to Richo and said "Do you reckon he knows we're playing Fitzroy?."

They saw through it then, and players will see through it now. I don't think you can carry on and get people fired up in the same ways. You can't just stick Rocky on the night before the game, and say go and get em boys.

 

[AstroboyUK]

Yep Richardson playing yesterday was a desperate last hurrah, put him on ice until years end.
Simmonds & Brown too looked a pace slower than recent efforts.

Sugar should get a tap on the shoulder and start preparing for his sendoff game.

Wallace needs to play some 50/50 players like Meyer, Cartledge, Polo etc. for the rest of the season to see what they've got before hard decisions are made.

Of course the big men (and infact everyone) looked slower than usual, it was heavy underfoot and in a strong breeze. One of our main strengths is speed and in the conditions we lost it. Its no *smile* mystery! (..and exactly the same situation in Sydney)

 

[The_General]

I thought Adelaide targetted all of our quick skillful players, and tried to take them out of the game, so the grunts were the only ones left to set up the play - which they are unable to do.

 

[waiting]

I agree that the players have to have pride as well in their performance and its not the coach that goes out there and plays, but this is an old cliche.

It all goes back to the coach and his assistants. Something is wrong !

 

[Tango]

same old same old,
everyone and i mean everyone knows that if RFC have time and space and they get confident they may go ok...BUT if you put them under pressure and put the heat on them, close them down and rough them up they will crack.
Their skills will drop off under pressure and their seniour players, richo, bowden, brown, johnson are all front runners and crack under pressure.
when things dont go well they dummy spit and go back to playing for themselves....
it happens everytime we have a big game...
its the mindset of the senior core, weak as *smile* thats why we need to cut them adrift and start a new leadership before its too late

 

[Cuzzo]

We talk of unfair criticism of players and then Waiting goes out of his way to single out, by name, a few of the so called drafting errors just for good measure - now thats unfair ! But what is really unfair is the constant criticism of a group of 19 players (kids dont forget) who are yet to play 40 games of AFL footy i.e.nearly half our list.Im not suggesting all those players will live up to expectations but lets give them a chance.

In comparison Carlton Hawthorn and Essendon have 15,17and 18 players respectively yet to play 40 games.North Melbourne are of interest with 20 players yet to play 40 games however have 15 players with over a 100 games experience.This compares with just 10 players at Richmond who have played over 100 games.

Waiting made reference twice to Jordan Mc Mahon.
A bloke from Champion Data asked me the question albeit a few years back what was the single most dominanant statistic common to sides that won.It wasnt inside 50`s,clearances etc etc it was the number of effective disposals out of the backline.Mc Mahons effective disposal percentage is currently over 77% with an AFL average of 74%.and is the reason we recruited him.Yes he will turn it over but a damn site less than 80% of the other AFL players in the comp.
But please dont let the facts get in the way of a good lynching.
Lets just lay the blame squarely at the feet of the blokes who have tried to fix an inherited debacle and had the temerity to tell us it would be a while before we had some real success.

Well guess what ?

 

[tiges]

for richmond to dish up that rubbish on sunday was unnaceptable.

 

[tiges]

We talk of unfair criticism of players and then Waiting goes out of his way to single out, by name, a few of the so called drafting errors just for good measure - now thats unfair ! But what is really unfair is the constant criticism of a group of 19 players (kids dont forget) who are yet to play 40 games of AFL footy i.e.nearly half our list.Im not suggesting all those players will live up to expectations but lets give them a chance.

In comparison Carlton Hawthorn and Essendon have 15,17and 18 players respectively yet to play 40 games.North Melbourne are of interest with 20 players yet to play 40 games however have 15 players with over a 100 games experience.This compares with just 10 players at Richmond who have played over 100 games.

Waiting made reference twice to Jordan Mc Mahon.
A bloke from Champion Data asked me the question albeit a few years back what was the single most dominanant statistic common to sides that won.It wasnt inside 50`s,clearances etc etc it was the number of effective disposals out of the backline.Mc Mahons effective disposal percentage is currently over 77% with an AFL average of 74%.and is the reason we recruited him.Yes he will turn it over but a damn site less than 80% of the other AFL players in the comp.
But please dont let the facts get in the way of a good lynching.
Lets just lay the blame squarely at the feet of the blokes who have tried to fix an inherited debacle and had the temerity to tell us it would be a while before we had some real success.

Well guess what ?

That you again terry?

 

[waiting]

Cuzzo if you read the post properly when names have been mentioned and i tried hard not too, its certain names that pop up here.

With reference to Mcmahon it was Terry's insistance to get him and overule Miller, so i was just stating how many has Terry overuled at draft time since his insistance to draft(prior to this one) skinny flankers. Then if you read properly i also made mention its not their fault they have come to the tigers nor their skills as this lies squarely on the shoulders of his and his coaching staff who mcmahon aside havent been able in four years to improve the overal skill of the side or develop a game plan.

The fact that carlton, hawthorn and essendon have played more kids and have as tiges pointed out more players reach the nimber of games required is poor. How many kids in Wallace's time has he debuted against the other three? Can someone refute this or back up what i am saying that his development of our young players is poor.

Those are my thoughts . Thats why the blame and critism cant be solely put on the players because he is the coach , he has had 4 years and if the players cant perform for him or on such important games that he needs to a) look at himself or b) look at playing more kids who want to play and stop with all the excuses and blame.

HE IS THE COACH !

 

[hutstar]

I think everyone has their point and they are probably all valid;
Players heartless
Coach needs to be more accountable
VS
Young developing squad

I see it as more than that - the oldie but goodie - culture.
The senior players by and large just do not set the right example, and there are not enough truly professional senior players at the club. A big part of that is the Frawley legacy, another is some poor recruitment and management. Regardless, it is a generational thing and IMO we are only half the way to the 'cleansing' of the culture of Casey/Frawley and to some extent the same culture that has pervaded the club for more than 20 years.
There has been much said about 'Richmond people' and I for one see no point in trying to lure Richmond people back to the club from the last 20 years, as this is the very culture we need to rid ourselves of!
We need a Sheedy (who might be Richmond but has built the 'Essendon culture' - in a footy directors role, to start sitting a few players (and coaches) on their arse and set a genuine benchmark for what is tolerated. There have been WAY too many weak efforts in the past couple of years and while I personally don't think this is Terry's fault (he can only send them on the park) he clearly doesn't influence the players enough to belt this horrible habit out of them.
If Terry can't get it done, we need someone who will, and if we could get him, Voss would suit perfectly.

 

[waiting]

Hutstar well written and said.

You added this point which i have mentioned on other posts but not this one. The "culture" has been poor and has been for a long time. Way , way back , the past 20 plus years. There was some spirit when Northey was there but since then and it seems so long ago (a memory) we just havent been able to recapture that spirit. Whose to blame, i guess i am trying to not squarely blame the players as i have in the past but go to the top.

Yes we are all entitled to our opinions thats why we all love PRE.

Its more deeply rooted than maybe we think or want to believe. Wallace and co have to stop this trend. If he cant then please do us a bulldogs and go.

I guess i want to defend our players even though i get gutted with what happened against the crows but thats why i also started this topic because if the players cant do it then who is to blame?

 

[hopper]

There's nothing like another thread with a common, unhidden agenda eh waiting. Yawn.

 

[GoodOne]

If Terry can't get it done, we need someone who will, and if we could get him, Voss would suit perfectly.

Was a great post hutstar but Im not convinced on Voss. Great player no doubt but with no experience in coaching he would be a great risk. I'd like to see Vossy in a supportive role for a while before feeling comfortable at offering the top job. I think Nathan Buckley is in the same boat but somehow I get this feeling he will make a better coach. I think the culture will change as the older players move on. More competition for spots will see to that. i don't think Terry is a strong one for changing culture maybe like a Williams at Port or a Malthouse would. Have always thought some mean-ass coach would be the best for the Tigers. Any mean-asses available out there?

 

[btoz_01]

Dont even think about having VOSS as coach. ullhair ullhair
Voss when applying for the Carlscum job last year listed Frawdley and Brittain as his possible asssistants.

 

[hutstar]

Was a great post hutstar but Im not convinced on Voss. Great player no doubt but with no experience in coaching he would be a great risk. I'd like to see Vossy in a supportive role for a while before feeling comfortable at offering the top job. I think Nathan Buckley is in the same boat but somehow I get this feeling he will make a better coach. I think the culture will change as the older players move on. More competition for spots will see to that. i don't think Terry is a strong one for changing culture maybe like a Williams at Port or a Malthouse would. Have always thought some mean-ass coach would be the best for the Tigers. Any mean-asses available out there?

Not necessarily saying Voss would be a good coach but I DO think he would be the kind of Hard-Arse that is required to dispell the culture.
The problem with waiting for the older players to go is that there are always more and it just doesn't change by itself, it needs to BE CHANGED. I reckon when Terry started, he was close to doing this. We all remember the clean up of the gym, the positive media and some big wins. Not sure what happened, except that I suspect he didn't have the list or the personality to them make some big moves within the player group to support his efforts. Retaining some rubbish players and adding a few more rubbish mature players, like it or not, was a necessity given the huge lack of experience in the squad (thanks frawley, again) i think.
Anyway - it didn't happen. Joel, Richo and Kane will go but do the next rung down - Tuck, Browny (yep could be in the previous list) and Pettifer, Tivendale, Newman, Hyde and McMahon really represent change? God, if anything it is worse.
Get someone who really can impose their cultural expectations on the club to some extent, like Sheedy or Malthouse or Blight or Matthews or Buckley or Voss and scare the bejesus out of the players. Get rid of the duds, even if the list is again young (for the millionth time) and work it out for good.