Victory is sometimes bitter sweet. Am I alone?

[Hayfever]

Does St Kilda have a winning culture?

in recent seasons yes. no one can argue that they give themselves every opportunity to win a flag by playing in the finals consistently.
very few sides make the finals for the first time in ages and go on to win a flag. it seems they have to do a finals apprenticeship.
theres no guarantees in life but at least stkilda give themselves a chance of a drink by going to the well on a regular basis.and they have created these chances by the use of early picks. where would you rather be, build a list that might get you into the finals with a quick exit or build a list that will get you to the well on a regular basis.
one last thing on the saints they would have to be one of the most injured teams in the comp and yet they still do okay each yr. imo the only reason they havent won a flag yet is they have a couple of deficiencies that need to be fixed.they lack a quality ruckman a quality fb and maybe one or 2 skillful quick mids.

Superb response Claw.

In your opinion what part has coach Thomas played in establishing this culture, and how do you rate him?

 

[Disco08]

That's why I'm bittersweet about victories when I believe our young list still does not have anywhere near the talent to win a premership. We need more skilled players on the list. I am however far less concerned than if priority picks were still around in their previous guise.

verywell put mav and absolutely right.

So Maverick and claw, aside from Knobel, Humm and Howat we've used all our draft picks (National, PSD and Rookie) on kids in the last two years haven't we? So apart from throwing games to get higher picks what exactly would you like to see done differently?

 

[the claw]

That's why I'm bittersweet about victories when I believe our young list still does not have anywhere near the talent to win a premership.  We need more skilled players on the list.  I am however far less concerned than if priority picks were still around in their previous guise.

verywell put mav and absolutely right.

So Maverick and claw, aside from Knobel, Humm and Howat we've used all our draft picks (National, PSD and Rookie) on kids in the last two years haven't we? So apart from throwing games to get higher picks what exactly would you like to see done differently?

ive got to get my arse of to work but very quickly imo we have to have 6 rookies we have to start utilising this goldmine properly. we also have to do what we did in 04 with the ottens deal. sometimes you have to give up something to get what you need. and if it looks like we wont make finals later in the yr play all kids although this may backfire as a lot of them have passed many of the hacks on the list.

now to thomas. dont really pay much attention to him but at a quick glance i think hes been innovative has the respect of his players and seems tactically sound if not strategically. hes made mistakes and i dare say he will continue to make them. the knobel deal is one mistake that everyone goes on about but i think his thinking was right just the timing wrong. he should of had an adequate replacement for him before he forced him out.
lastly i dont like to use injuries as an excuse but they have cruelled him the last 2 yrs a good run with injury and he may well have snagged a flag. one more thing not finishing top 2 has hurt as well having to travell interstate first week of finals has caught them out.

 

[Spirit of Jack]

That's why I'm bittersweet about victories when I believe our young list still does not have anywhere near the talent to win a premership.  We need more skilled players on the list.  I am however far less concerned than if priority picks were still around in their previous guise.

verywell put mav and absolutely right.

So Maverick and claw, aside from Knobel, Humm and Howat we've used all our draft picks (National, PSD and Rookie) on kids in the last two years haven't we? So apart from throwing games to get higher picks what exactly would you like to see done differently?

Bowden, Simmonds are two more I can think of.  

I think we are heading in the right direction, we are drafting more kids, we are rookieing more kids, we are playing more kids so not too many complaints from me with the way we are going about it.  We are better this year than last in those things.

Lets not forget that we were coming from a terrible base not so long ago and old habits have died hard. ie trading top picks for veterans, playing veterans too long, not putting enough rookies on etc

My main hope is that we would be prepared to trade some of our better older players at the end of the year for more draft picks.  I dont see that happening though as this only really occurs when the veterans are disgruntled and I dont think they will be under this regime unless we low ball them on salary.

 

[Disco08]

we have to have 6 rookies we have to start utilising this goldmine properly. we also have to do what we did in 04 with the ottens deal. sometimes you have to give up something to get what you need

On the rookies I totally agree, and hopefully now that we seem to be in a better financial position than the last few years we'll see a full rookie list next year (which will work out well with the supposed depth in this draft). I don't think you can blame anyone but Casey and his board for putting us in the position where we couldn't afford a full rookie list though. I'm pretty sure if you offered it to Miller or Wallace there answer wouldn't be 'no'.

On trading players I agree also. Trading Ottens (when there were ALOT of supporters against the idea) shows that when the opportunity arises they'll take it. With the competition for spots heating up this year could be another opportunity to trade a bigger name or two for some decent picks. But I also don't think you can blame Miller or Wallace for the lack of trading though. When these guys arrived our list was atrocious. We just didn't have anyone of interest to other clubs. They did very well in the end getting two picks for Ottens.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

On trading players I agree also. Trading Ottens (when there were ALOT of supporters against the idea) shows that when the opportunity arises they'll take it. With the competition for spots heating up this year could be another opportunity to trade a bigger name or two for some decent picks.

This is the path we have to take.On the Club80 thread it was mentioned that at years end there will be some big suprise,s.One of them no doubt is *smile*,s future,I have no doubt in my mind that he wont be in tiger colors next year[Well not at AFL level ;D].The other while im hoping im way off base here but one Mark Coughlan might be the other "Big Suprise".We have got the best out of Cogs and with the emergance of Tuck,Polo & Foley we do have enough "In & Unders" to afford to put the RFC in a better position come draft time.Id seriously consider the following senerio for example:
Based on current ladder position:
Cogs & Pick #23 for a top 10 pick.
Therefore giving us 2 top 10 picks.

 

[Jack]

AFL football is a game of inches and I can't help but think how different our year would be if instead of tight wins versus Brissie, Blues Dons and Crows they were tight losses. And if they were tight losses would we in the long run be better off?

The names Gumbleton, Hansen Gibbs Thorpe Stellar loom ominous. The tigers could really do with a big forward to replace Richo in time or another young gun midfielder in the Deledio class. I wonder if I am alone in thinking we are overperforming this year and will win 10-12 games and how this will affect our list in the future.

Obviously I am very happy to have a winners mentality placed on our young players, the fact that the club has a coach who is good enough to mix it with anyone is a relief at last, but the fact remains, we will not win the premiership this year, and winning games just makes it harder for Miller to recruit a champion in the draft.

On the other hand perhaps we are not overperforming. We don't have a full list to choose from and having Brown, Johno, Thursfield and Shultz really would make us a better team. Maybe in times like these you just have to believe that the club is in great hands and that Miller and co will make the right decisions...and to be honest so far they have .... especially at the selection table.

The long term future of the club is prominent in their minds as players such as JON, Hughes, Meyer, Polo, Raines, Bling Lids Patto are being given every opportunity. Part of me doesnt want Gas, Chaff, Tivers or big Staff to play in the seniors again. Part of me wants Brown nice and rested till next year when our youngsters will have another year of development in  them and we can give the finals a good shake. But then again if we can make the finals this year. For the third time in 25 years maybe we have to. Maybe the extra 500k we can create in members and in corporate fundng we can generate will help Miller attract a yong gun to the club, or more importantly help us retain one of our own.  In summary I think I will just leave it to the proffesionals and say carn the tigers....I think...


Cheers

Blaisee

Good topic this one because I definately feel the same.

I want the team to keep developing, but at the same time I want us to keep improving the list as best we can so we are a power team in 5 years, and so we are a power team for a number of years in a row.

I think any improvment we keep showing this year is a positive.  

TW said this week that we have 30 players 24 or younger on the list.  That is a lot.

We have cleared out most of the dead wood in recent years, but maybe a few tough decisions may need to be made on some of the younger guys to allow us to trade and get some high draft picks this year.

With this years draft expected to be strong, I would love to have another 5 or 6 picks in the first 30 or 40 picks this year.

The youth policy would be fully in place then, and development would then be the key.

 

[Tygrys]

I too think that we are a draft maybe two away from being in a position to challenge for the finals. Winning culture as has been pointed out can't take the place of having genuine players with talent. It's no accident that the last four clubs to win day time premierships are now occupying four of the five bottom positions on the ladder. You can't implement a winning culture without the players to do it, and they just haven't had the draft picks to keep it going.

Also people keep on pointing out late draft pick selection stories. True you can pick up very good players late in the draft. But how many of them I want to know have been gun KPPs especially forward of center? That's what this club is crying out for, and picking up another Tuck or Raines just isn't going to do it.

Finally my absolute preference would be to finish high and trade. But I'm not convinced that Miller and Wallace would trade as ruthlessly necessary to get those early picks (apart from Deledio and a small handful of 'young' players I think everyone should be on the table). Failing that a bottom four finish will do me just fine. Again I want to win premierships and not simply become the 9th on the Ladder finishing specialists.

 

[RROFO]

I too think that we are a draft maybe two away from being in a position to challenge for the finals. Winning culture as has been pointed out can't take the place of having genuine players with talent. It's no accident that the last four clubs to win day time premierships are now occupying four of the five bottom positions on the ladder. You can't implement a winning culture without the players to do it, and they just haven't had the draft picks to keep it going.

Also people keep on pointing out late draft pick selection stories. True you can pick up very good players late in the draft. But how many of them I want to know have been gun KPPs especially forward of center? That's what this club is crying out for, and picking up another Tuck or Raines just isn't going to do it.

Finally my absolute preference would be to finish high and trade. But I'm not convinced that Miller and Wallace would trade as ruthlessly necessary to get those early picks (apart from Deledio and a small handful of 'young' players I think everyone should be on the table). Failing that a bottom four finish will do me just fine. Again I want to win premierships and not simply become the 9th on the Ladder finishing specialists.

You're right, you must have the cattle to win BUT, you must take every win when it comes. The topic is Victory is sometimes bitter sweet. Am I alone? I would argue victory is never bitter sweet. Winning is not the problem. If you win then rejoice. If you need players then you must find other means. I seriously can't understand winning then feeling ANY negative feelings towards it, however minor. At the moment we are winning and progressing (IMHO). As has been mentioned in this thread if we really must improve our draft position then we must look outside the square.

 

[blaisee]

I too think that we are a draft maybe two away from being in a position to challenge for the finals. Winning culture as has been pointed out can't take the place of having genuine players with talent. It's no accident that the last four clubs to win day time premierships are now occupying four of the five bottom positions on the ladder. You can't implement a winning culture without the players to do it, and they just haven't had the draft picks to keep it going.

Also people keep on pointing out late draft pick selection stories. True you can pick up very good players late in the draft. But how many of them I want to know have been gun KPPs especially forward of center? That's what this club is crying out for, and picking up another Tuck or Raines just isn't going to do it.

Finally my absolute preference would be to finish high and trade. But I'm not convinced that Miller and Wallace would trade as ruthlessly necessary to get those early picks (apart from Deledio and a small handful of 'young' players I think everyone should be on the table). Failing that a bottom four finish will do me just fine. Again I want to win premierships and not simply become the 9th on the Ladder finishing specialists.

You're right, you must have the cattle to win BUT, you must take every win when it comes. The topic is Victory is sometimes bitter sweet. Am I alone? I would argue victory is never bitter sweet. Winning is not the problem. If you win then rejoice. If you need players then you must find other means. I seriously can't understand winning then feeling ANY negative feelings towards it, however minor. At the moment we are winning and progressing (IMHO). As has been mentioned in this thread if we really must improve our draft position then we must look outside the square.

and how do you propose we look outside the square?

what you propose is a purely theoretical position with absolutely no merit whatsoever.

Our list is not good enough to win a premiership ( even Miller and Plough admit this )

The only way to improve the list is through the draft.

The higher up you finish the lower the draft pick.

The days of trading tivendale and chaffey for a 1st round draft pick are over. Clubs are smart these days and very few trades get done. Please explain to me how we are going to improve the list when a) we have no money and hence resources, and b) we dont have one of the top 5 draft picks.

In the communist system that is the AFL victory is bitter sweet

 

[RROFO]

I too think that we are a draft maybe two away from being in a position to challenge for the finals. Winning culture as has been pointed out can't take the place of having genuine players with talent. It's no accident that the last four clubs to win day time premierships are now occupying four of the five bottom positions on the ladder. You can't implement a winning culture without the players to do it, and they just haven't had the draft picks to keep it going.

Also people keep on pointing out late draft pick selection stories. True you can pick up very good players late in the draft. But how many of them I want to know have been gun KPPs especially forward of center? That's what this club is crying out for, and picking up another Tuck or Raines just isn't going to do it.

Finally my absolute preference would be to finish high and trade. But I'm not convinced that Miller and Wallace would trade as ruthlessly necessary to get those early picks (apart from Deledio and a small handful of 'young' players I think everyone should be on the table). Failing that a bottom four finish will do me just fine. Again I want to win premierships and not simply become the 9th on the Ladder finishing specialists.

You're right, you must have the cattle to win BUT, you must take every win when it comes. The topic is Victory is sometimes bitter sweet. Am I alone? I would argue victory is never bitter sweet. Winning is not the problem. If you win then rejoice. If you need players then you must find other means. I seriously can't understand winning then feeling ANY negative feelings towards it, however minor. At the moment we are winning and progressing (IMHO). As has been mentioned in this thread if we really must improve our draft position then we must look outside the square.

and how do you propose we look outside the square?

what you propose is a purely theoretical position with absolutely no merit whatsoever.

Our list is not good enough to win a premiership ( even Miller and Plough admit this )

The only way to improve the list is through the draft.

The higher up you finish the lower the draft pick.

The days of trading tivendale and chaffey for a 1st round draft pick are over. Clubs are smart these days and very few trades get done. Please explain to me how we are going to improve the list when a) we have no money and hence resources, and b) we dont have one of the top 5 draft picks.

In the communist system that is the AFL victory is bitter sweet

So your point is we should lose games on purpose?

 

[hopper]

How long are we supposed to be rubbish?? How many potential brownlow medallists (remomber Ottens was one of those) do we need on our list before we actually start trying again? The draft is no exact science - even these days.

People make this sort of threat idly all the time - but if I ever thought we were deliberately losing, I'd cancel my membership. And there's a difference between losing on purpose and playing the kids.

 

[blaisee]

My point is you have not read the last 6 pages and if you did you would not be asking me this question.

I want to win
I want a premiership.
We will not win a premiership this year
Every win brings us higher on the ladder
Every win makes it harder for us to draft a champion
My heart wants us to win, but my head says maybe we are better off losing the close ones
Hence victory is bitter sweet!

 

[blaisee]

How long are we supposed to be rubbish??  How many potential brownlow medallists (remomber Ottens was one of those) do we need on our list before we actually start trying again?  The draft is no exact science - even these days. 

People make this sort of threat idly all the time - but if I ever thought we were deliberately losing, I'd cancel my membership.  And there's a difference between losing on purpose and playing the kids.

no doubt I agree 100%

that is why *smile* and chaffey and tivers should never play another game for the tigers.

Hughes Limbach and Shultz should play in place of *smile*
and our legion of midrunning youngsters should play in front of tivers and chaff

To the teams credit, that is in principle what is being done at the moment.

Hence I have no complaints

 

[johnson2richo2003]

Every win makes it harder for us to draft a champion

Can you give me an 100% assurance that Picks in the top 4-5 will be champions?

 

[RROFO]

My point is you have not read the last 6 pages and if you did you would not be asking me this question.

I want to win
I want a premiership.
We will not win a premiership this year
Every win brings us higher on the ladder
Every win makes it harder for us to draft a champion
My heart wants us to win, but my head says maybe we are better off losing the close ones
Hence victory is bitter sweet!

Well I disagree then

 

[shawry]

How long are we supposed to be rubbish??  How many potential brownlow medallists (remomber Ottens was one of those) do we need on our list before we actually start trying again?  The draft is no exact science - even these days. 

People make this sort of threat idly all the time - but if I ever thought we were deliberately losing, I'd cancel my membership.  And there's a difference between losing on purpose and playing the kids.

no doubt I agree 100%

that is why *smile* and chaffey and tivers should never play another game for the tigers.

Hughes Limbach and Shultz should play in place of *smile*
and our legion of midrunning youngsters should play in front of tivers and chaff

To the teams credit, that is in principle what is being done at the moment.

Hence I have no complaints

My fundamental problem with all this theorising is that the youngsters need some elder statemsmen like Gaspar, Tivendale and Chaffey to learn off of, to learn the ropes. A team full of youngsters has no chance of winning anything, will get flogged regularly and this has long term ramifications for their confidence and belief.

 

[Disco08]

With Bowden, Richo, Johnson, Kellaway, Hall, Brown etc it would hardly be a team full of youngster shawry, just a young team.

 

[hopper]

No worries, blaisee, we will have to agree to disagree. I just don't profess to a theory that playing kids, getting poleaxed and taking slightly higher draft picks guarantees a premiership any more than letting them earn their spot, working with experienced players and being competitive in every game. It's just way too simplistic for me.

 

[shawry]

With Bowden, Richo, Johnson, Kellaway, Hall, Brown etc it would hardly be a team full of youngster shawry, just a young team.

Still not enough experience would be in there for my liking.

Have to agree with Hopper's latest comments. The hardest part of football or all sports is the mental side, they all have the ability. Messing with their mentality is only detrimental.