Wallace at the Dogs compared to the Tigers

[tigerjoe]

We all know Terry took the dogs from cellar dwellars to Prelim finalists in consecutive years, but can anyone tell us where the dogs improved on the field to get them there.

This thread http://www.hawkheadquarters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22898 discusses Terry's so called deficiencies.

If indeed they are factual it shows that the dogs lack of one percenters, clearances and tackles is being repeated at Richmond.

Are the players Terry has drafted the hard, tough, mutiskilled blokes needed to go all the way?
I still cannot see who in our side will stand up for teammates ala Michael Voss or Jonathon Brown.

I believe Terry has learnt from his time at the dogs and in his time off in the media analysing other teams and what is needed to win a flag, I would like some answers though as to why we are a low tackling, low one percenter side.

 

[Tigerfan]

TW probably believes that Tuck, coughlan, johnson, Polo, jackson and one or two others might be enough to do the job

 

[checkside]

Because they are pussys. Today at the coburg game Jake King from coburg was on the ground wrestling with two Box Hill player(big fat ones) and Tom Roach just stood 10 meters away and watched while being yelled at by both the runners and all the players on the bench to get over there and help him out. Our guys a a bunch of pussys and they hardly ever stick up for there teamates. And our tackles are always half hearted efforts that hardly ever stick.

 

[TigerForce]

Sheer jealousy.

Let the Dawks continue to live in fantasy with their political president dreaming that Clarkson will get them somewhere and also that Matthews will return, because neither will happen.

 

[the claw]

i would have thought wallaces biggest weakness was his inability to draft and grow talls. the other area was an inability to grow inside ball winners.

 

[bogan4life]

Wallace does create a so called soft side by the players he likes to draft, but this is now changed at the dogs.

Remember that Wallace also once had the toughest side going around in 97 98.

 

[shawry]

Because they are pussys. Today at the coburg game Jake King from coburg was on the ground wrestling with two Box Hill player(big fat ones) and Tom Roach just stood 10 meters away and watched while being yelled at by both the runners and all the players on the bench to get over there and help him out. Our guys a a bunch of pussys and they hardly ever stick up for there teamates. And our tackles are always half hearted efforts that hardly ever stick.

I am sure Roach probably didnt want to be hit with a fine. I think he should have stil lgone in there though not let his mate take it on his own.

 

[TOT70]

What Wallace had to work with at the Bullodgs was quite different to what he found at Richmond.

I basically agree that he has recruited a certain type of player because he has a vision that speed and skill will win out in the end. So he recruits pacy players and wants his talls to be wiry mobile types rather than Jonathan Browns. This may work in the long run, who knows for sure?

When he arrived at Richmond, he found a side that was basically fairly pedestrian by AFL standards. No real pace, no real size and no real hard nuts. Just a collection of solid citizens and average AFL players. Richo, Brown, KJohnson and JBowden were the obvious exceptions and even they weren't 100% bankable superstars.

At the Bulldogs he had something quite different to work with from day 1. He had established stars like Scott Wynd and emerging ones like West, Grant, Johnson, Smith and Darcy. Alll of these players have oozed class from day 1. He also had a big collection of hard nuts and nasty characters like Romero, Dimattina, Libba, Danny Southern and quite a few others. It was this group that stepped up quickly and got them up and running.

He realised that hard nuts make a team competitive but lack of class will eventually tell. Hence the recruiting of Browny, Gilbee, McMahon, Eagleton and other classy players-Eade is reaping the benefit of this right now. Luckily for him West, Johnson, Grant and Smith are stil firing all these years later.

Richmond of 2006 is two years behind the Bulldogs in terms of recruiting but doesn't have the assistance of classy senior players and hard nuts to add steel to the group. He will evetually have to recruit this.

Eventually he will need to realise that as well as unwrapping his shiny new Christmas presents like Deledio and Oakley-Nicholls every year he will have to ask Santa for some socks and jocks as well!

 

[Phar Ace]

What Wallace had to work with at the Bullodgs was quite different to what he found at Richmond.

I basically agree that he has recruited a certain type of player because he has a vision that speed and skill will win out in the end.  So he recruits pacy players and wants his talls to be wiry mobile types rather than Jonathan Browns.  This may work in the long run, who knows for sure?

Spot on Toto! This is his first 18 months of coaching into a long term plan - and what he inheritated needed urgent action too - PACE, PACE and some MORE PACE! Precious few Jonothan Browns come along and if one has been recruited in the past two years through the draft - he is not visible yet at any club!

OK so we are down on tackles:

Tackling stats are a dble edged sword IMO. Last century they were vital statistics - the team with the most usually won. I haven't seen that prevail with the same dominance this century. The theory that "if your tackling this means you don't have the ball" is starting to get some traction - we see corralling now instead of tackling, we see players stripped of the ball rather than tackled, we see efforts to keep the ball being knocked out rather than trapped and tackled.

I agree we lack the "nasties" but even when we had one or two in recent years, their skills we abject. The scrutiny the game receives just doesn't justify the type of players we once knew as one-dimensionally tough. These days the Tucks, the Hodges are the modern day nasties, players that can be physical but will hurt you more with skill. Read articles about how Jonothan Brown and Barry Hall have made efforts to remain strong but suspension free. They remind one how the face of this game has changed.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Urrgh I feel all dirty going over to that place..but it is an interesting perspective none the same.

Terry Wallace coached teams: And draft

Statistics from 1996: (Mostly concerned with the lack of tackling and the 1% per centers Terry Wallace coached sides do in a season).

Tackling

1996: Sydney = Runners up Rated 1st in tackling Footscray: 16th
1997: Adelaide = Premiers 1st in tackling W.B 12th
1998: Adelaide = Premiers 1st W.B 11th
1999: Kangaroos = Premiers 4th W.B 10th
2000: Essendon = Premiers 2nd W.B 14th

(Note Essendon’s only loss in 2000 was to the Western Bulldogs in round 21. Western Bulldogs tackled more than Essendon that evening.

2001: Brisbane Lions = Premiers 4th in tackles W.B 15th

(Note in 2002 and 2003 Brisbane was rated no 1 in tackles in the competition).

2005: Sydney = Premiers 1st in tackling Richmond 15th
2006: Melbourne = ? 1st in tackling Richmond 11th

1 per centers (Smothers, Shepard’s, blocks,) e.t.c

2000: Essendon = Premiers 4th in 1 per centers W.B 16th

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004: Brisbane = Runners up and Premiers 3 straight years
No 1 in one per centers W.B in 2001 15th

2005: Sydney = Premiers 1st in one per centers Richmond 16th
2006: Melbourne = ? 1st in one per centers Richmond 15th

Note: Premiership teams in the history of the game have been good tackling sides. Tackling does many things in a game of football; it places pressure on the opposition and even places perceived pressure when you do it correctly. It obviously fatigues sides later in the contest also. In Finals games when there is a definite improvement in areas mentioned above, it has been proven that Terry Wallace coached teams do not tackle and apply physical pressure and 1%’s on the ball carrier, or in the game in general.
In Wallace’s best years in charge of a team 1997 and 1998 they were overrun and then smashed by the crows in both years. You could see Adelaide lift especially in 1997 because they were not being tackled, and therefore were not tired at games end. It gave them the ability to run the game out.

Wallace at the Bulldogs had one of the best tacklers the game has seen in Tony Liberatore. Even still it did not assist tackle numbers team wise. Romero, West, Dimma, and others were also productive tacklers or should have been.
Wallace allows teams with good foot skills too much time and space. In Richmond’s severe losses this year, the opposition has eased through the midfield with the mindset they would not be tackled. (Figures above prove this) Sydney, W.B and even Hawthorn were allowed too much time and space. If you give AFL footballer’s time and space they surely will cause havoc.

Wallace is successful in limiting contested marks, as well as hard ball gets to the opposition, although this may be a thing of the past. Most teams now play with an uncontested aspect to assist their running players. Teams with numerous forward options will often beat a Terry Wallace coached side. He likes to have a defender such as a Kellaway or a Bowden free at Richmond to zone off or be the 3rd man up at the contest. At the Bulldogs Craig Ellis or Todd Curley would do that role. If you are the opposition and you see this, you surely direct some football through Bowden to hurt them on the scoreboard.
(Re Luke Brennan) Sunday in Tasmania.

Wallace has struggled to beat coaches such as Mark Williams, Schwab (Hawthorn), Malthouse and Matthews because of either their success at uncontested style of football, their ability to tackle fiercely, or the fact they have had numerous options up forward.

Wallace would probably like to play 22 wingman if he could. A fast running side that does not tackle. The purchase of Tambling and Oakley-Nicholls may come off, although at present Richmond stand 16th at clearances. Either at stop plays or centre breaks. In and under footballers would stop this trend. Richmond have refused to draft Nathan Jones and Jordan Lewis who are excellent at the stoppages, rather they chose Danny Meyer and Tambling types.

The lack of an up and coming spine could spell disaster for Richmond. Thursfield is a very good footballer, but he may not recover from a serious knee injury. Shultz is untried really at senior level. Hughes will be a player but will take two or three years to fill out. Limbach will also be productive, but needs to put on weight. Gaspar seems out of favor, Kellaway and Ray Hall are only battlers (despite braveness) who struggle with disposal. Bowden does not play on a man and if he does can struggle to man up on most occasions. If you pressure Richmond’s defence they do not have the ability to hit targets going forward. At the Bulldogs Wallace did not have the spine to win in September.
With the draft picks at his disposal (at Richmond) he could have well and truly improved the position of Richmond’s talls. However he has decided to go with the Western Bulldogs style again which did not pay dividends the first time around.

Wallace is a very smart business operator, has excellent media skills which will benefit the club with members and sponsorship. However it remains to be seen whether he will take the Richmond side to sustained success. The lack of tackling, sustained pressure, one per centers and clearances
(with bigger bodies) need to be worked upon. Whether it will remains to be seen. As history and statistics show you need to be successful at tackling to win premierships. With Wallace at the helm it is highly doubtful.

Note: In Richmond’s best seasons in recent times: 1995 and 2001 they were a good tackling side.
1995: 1st in total tackles
2001: 3rd in total tackles.

What Richmond should do in the upcoming draft?

Do everything in their power to recruit the following players. They will need to trade / give away some talent, but the following players will assist in the tiger’s progression as a club.
Not in order:
1. Tom Hislop (Tas) good at clearances / go forward and kick goals/ tough - Michael Voss
2. Mitch Thorp (Tas) presence on field / leader/ tough/ fullforward / Jonathon Brown
3. Jack Riewoldt (Tas) good endurance / CHF/CHB Can play a Carey type game
4. Tomas Bellchambers (Tas) good tap Ruckman. Good mark. Clark Keating.
5. Aaron Joseph (Tas) tough in and under player. Tagger/ or h.b.f/ b.p - Steven Baker
6. Craig Bird (N.S.W) leadership qualities. hard at it / good at clearances. Brett Kirk.

Credit to the poster at HH.
http://www.hawkheadquarters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22898

 

[feisty tige]

1. Greg Tivendale    45
2. Shane Tuck          37
3. Nathan Foley          37
4. Mark Coughlan   36
5. Chris Newman   36
6. Andrew Krakouer   34
7. Joel Bowden         27
8. Chris Hyde          25
9. Andrew Raines    25
10. Andrew Kellaway    23
11. Richard  Tambling    22
12. Troy Simmonds   21
13. Kayne Pettifer 20
14. Kane Johnson         20

2006 tackle stats... (my formatting is crap!) only including top 14 = 20 tackles+

http://richmondfc.com.au/default.asp?pg=stats&spg=otherclubstats&records=100&statisticType=TACKLES

 

[feisty tige]

1. Matthew Bode Adelaide 57
2. Scott Thompson Adelaide 47
3. Brent Reilly Adelaide 46
4. Tyson Edwards Adelaide 41
5. Simon Goodwin Adelaide 41
6. Robert Shirley Adelaide 39
7. Martin Mattner Adelaide 31
8. Rhett Biglands Adelaide 30
9. Michael Doughty Adelaide 29
10. Andrew McLeod Adelaide 27
11. Kris Massie Adelaide 26
12. Nathan  van Berlo Adelaide 23
13. Ken McGregor Adelaide 22
14. Ben Rutten Adelaide 21
15. Nathan Bassett Adelaide 20

2006 Adelaide FC tackle stats only including top 15 = 20 tackles+

http://afc.com.au/default.asp?pg=stats&spg=display&records=100&statisticType=TACKLES

 

[Hayfever]

Wallace has struggled to beat coaches such as Mark Williams, Schwab (Hawthorn), Malthouse and Matthews because of either their success at uncontested style of football, their ability to tackle fiercely, or the fact they have had numerous options up forward

Interesting ToO but his record against Williams, Malthouse and Matthews is not too shabby given the respective cattle they had to work with. His record against other premiership coaches Sheedy, Pagan, Parkin and Blight is bloody good:-

Head to Head # Against Games W L D Win% First Last
1 Mick Malthouse 14 6 8 0 42.86 1996 2005
2 Rodney Eade 12 8 4 0 66.67 1997 2006
3 Leigh Matthews 11 4 7 0 36.36 1999 2006
4 Kevin Sheedy 11 6 4 1 59.09 1996 2006
5 Denis Pagan 11 7 4 0 63.64 1997 2006
6 Gary Ayres 10 6 4 0 60.00 1997 2002
7 Mark Williams 9 4 5 0 44.44 1999 2005
8 David Parkin 8 4 4 0 50.00 1996 2000
9 Malcolm Blight 8 4 4 0 50.00 1997 2001
10 Neale Daniher 8 4 4 0 50.00 1998 2005
11 Ken Judge 7 4 2 1 64.29 1996 2001
12 Mark Thompson 6 3 3 0 50.00 2000 2006
13 Peter Schwab 5 1 4 0 20.00 2000 2002
14 Grant Thomas 5 2 3 0 40.00 2001 2006
15 Tony Shaw 5 3 2 0 60.00 1996 1999
16 Danny Frawley 4 2 2 0 50.00 2000 2002
17 John Worsfold 4 1 3 0 25.00 2002 2006
18 Chris Connolly 4 2 2 0 50.00 2002 2006
19 Gerard Neesham 4 2 2 0 50.00 1996 1998
20 Jeff Gieschen 4 3 1 0 75.00 1997 1999


http://afl.allthestats.com/coaches/coach.php?id=289

 

[Tigers of Old]

Wallace has struggled to beat coaches such as Mark Williams, Schwab (Hawthorn), Malthouse and Matthews because of either their success at uncontested style of football, their ability to tackle fiercely, or the fact they have had numerous options up forward

Interesting ToO

It is Jonathon Hay, but I can't take credit for this at all. Just did a cut & paste job from the source.

 

[Smilodon]

Great work ToO. This is well worth your re-posting, and you've done the Right Thing with your acknowledgement.

We don't put enough pressure on the ball carrier. This is not really a new problem - we spent the last few years under coach Frawley sagging back and conceding time and space to the opposition. I think this was once referred to as the not-OK corrall? ANY side will struggle when pressured, and when players apply the pressure and see its effect it can become a real positive feedback loop.

And we are not winning enough clearances this year. That was really the problem with both the end of the Fremantle game and most of the Hawthorn game.

I'd really like to know what the coaching staff think of this aspect of the game. Whether what we are seeing is part of a calculated tradeoff between pace/skill and pressure/hardness. Or whether it is just where the club is at the moment and the inherited players.

At least our tackles stick occasionally these days.

This would be a hard thing to prove (can't think of any stats that would show it) but I suspect that both Adelaide and Sydney try hard to keep the player with the ball under some sort of pressure. Both of them flood from time to time, which means both are vulnerable to backwards or sideways transfer of play, but wherever the ball might be there seems to be an intention to challenge the player. Mental pressure if not physical.

 

[gustiger12]

Remember how we tackled under Tommy. Scared the Be Jesus out of me. ;D

 

[geoffryprettyboy]

Tezza at the dogs was much lighter and didn't give a stuff about labels, these days I reckon he has bulked a bit and sure give Hugo Boss a bit a hiding, overall he is looking good these days.

 

[tigerjoe]

Great work ToO.  This is well worth your re-posting, and you've done the Right Thing with your acknowledgement.

We don't put enough pressure on the ball carrier.  This is not really a new problem - we spent the last few years under coach Frawley sagging back and conceding time and space to the opposition. I think this was once referred to as the not-OK corrall?  ANY side will struggle when pressured, and when players apply the pressure and see its effect it can become a real positive feedback loop.

And we are not winning enough clearances this year.  That was really the problem with both the end of the Fremantle game and most of the Hawthorn game.

So what's the problem at stoppages then?
Simmonds is having a fantastic year in the ruck, why are our onballers unable to capitalise?

We lost to Freo because we went defensive too early, but down in Tassie Hawthorn had their major onballers missing and they still killed us.

Above the shoulders is where the problem lies IMHO.

It's amazing that full time pro footballers can go into a game with a mentality that things will just happen.

All they have to do is put in for 120mins a week FFS!

They get paid a fortune to do so, but they are as soft as *smile* butter.

Bring back the days of 100 100's I say.

 

[Rayzorwire]

That's an interesting evaluation you posted ToO...the question I would ask is how many of these tackles were genuinely effective? I would suspect that the % genuinely effective would tell us another story and we'd come out much worse on that comparison compared to the better tackling sides.

Having said that, we are carrying both aged and very young legs in our engine room, so I'd expect both the number of tackles and the % effective will increase as we gradually rebuild.

Re. comparisons between Wallace's time at the Dogs and with us, I agree with much of what TOT70 says, was a great post.

I must say, I'm not at all convinced Wallace is aiming for a premiership or believing it is probable within his current five year tenure. I think we are taking a 'two-tiered' approach to our rebuilding...aiming to go as far as we can while Johnson, Richo, Brown and the other core, mid-high paid seniors remain, then looking to wipe the slate clean after that era disappears...reload for another tilt based around a core of mid age players who have played all or most of their career under Wallace, grab a star or three with all that cap room free and better finances (hopefully), but be regular finals contenders from year four of Wallace's current contract onwards.

Lastly, when evaluating Wallace's tenure with the Dogs, it's worth noting how hamstrung he was with regard to general finances and salary cap. With any luck we won't have any remotely similar worries a few years down the track.