Wallace on SEN `Run Home' 12/3/08

[mojo31]

Hurn at 12 would of been a nice pickup, but he is a little too muscly for Richmond.

He went at 13. Nathan Jones went at 12. Another one of those stocky types.

 

[the claw]

Always nice to revisit a wider set of facts to get some perspective. JON was a curious choice and clearly his decsion making was always a problem but they punted anyway on agility and X factor. I am actually very interested in how the JON experiment will pan out. Doesn't look like a winning investment at this stage.

But looking at the list above Kennedy and Dowler at 4 and 6 are still to show anything much. That's to be expected with young kpps as a rule but also highlisghts why I think you get a better bang for your buck concentrating on mids with high picks and spreading the net wider in search of talls. The flip side is that a real quality tall that makes it like a Riewoldt or Pavlich can set up the rest of your recruiting and structure in years to come. As seen however those two class talls dont gurantee unltimate success. The key there seems to be a spread of skilled and smart layers and effective disposal skills/systems.

I like Clark, but he too runs hot and cold. Terrific potential though.

Carlton's recruiting strategy is curious though. They use pick 4 on a tall and punt him 2 years later, unusual considering the development time for talls. Perhaps a concession that the pick was a mistake. However it seems a real gamble together with punting picks 3 and 20 in this year's draft - They must think their finishing positions in recent years is not an accurate indicator of the ability of the list if they feel they can offload so many early picks.

regardless of what club all of kennedy dowler clarke ryder and drum ended up at they should not have been expected to play more than a handful of games in their first 2 yrs. i was fortunate enough to see a fair bit of both ryder and kennedy at east freo i liked both boys a lot.

on carltons recruiting strategy. imo kennedy was one they could afford to off load as far as recruiting strategy went. im sure they would have liked to have kept him but they did have to offer up the equivalant of 2 early first round picks to get judd.

they clearly rated kruezer in front of kennedy and they considered their list structure as well.
in 2007 carlton had 24 190cm+ players on their list this included rookies. i think they thought they had the key positions covered if not right now in the not to distant future.
they did need a potential top notch ruckman and got one in kruezer who i think will only play a handful of games at the most this yr.

carlton this yr have 22 190cm+ players in their system including rookies.this number includes 4 or 5 flanker mid utility types like hadley walker grigg bannister and as such cant be classified as genuine talls or potential kpps. in reality they are tall mediums /utilities..at the other end of the tall scale they have 5 players at 199cm+ 2 of whom are very good prospects in hampson and kruezer.
setanta o looks to me to be improving every yr considering his background hes done well to date. big bodied fb pinch hit ruckman. waite will play mostly chb thornton as a third tall with both bower and austin both promising developing.
up forward fevola fisher with hartlett and edwards ready to take the next step. you then have older depth players imo ackland cloke and saddington.cloke and akland enables carlton to ease kruezer thru his first yr.


the boy a lot of posters like nathan jones i had reservations about. hes my type of player but his skills had me concerned.still do.


the two boys i had pencilled in at 8 was hurn and drum. i had hurn going at 5 i must admit i was bitterly disappointed we did not take him when it came to our pick. and i will admit i was even more disappointed we took jon with this pick having seen a bit of him at colts level.
the other constant disappointment for me has been we continually overlook the opportunity to use quality picks on our list needs in favour of what we have plenty of.

 

[mojo31]

regardless of what club all of kennedy dowler clarke ryder and drum ended up at they should not have been expected to play more than a handful of games in their first 2 yrs. i was fortunate enough to see a fair bit of both ryder and kennedy at east freo i liked both boys a lot.

on carltons recruiting strategy. imo kennedy was one they could afford to off load as far as recruiting strategy went. im sure they would have liked to have kept him but they did have to offer up the equivalant of 2 early first round picks to get judd.

they clearly rated kruezer in front of kennedy and they considered their list structure as well.
in 2007 carlton had 24 190cm+ players on their list this included rookies. i think they thought they had the key positions covered if not right now in the not to distant future.
they did need a potential top notch ruckman and got one in kruezer who i think will only play a handful of games at the most this yr.

carlton this yr have 22 190cm+ players in their system including rookies.this number includes 4 or 5 flanker mid utility types like hadley walker grigg bannister and as such cant be classified as genuine talls or potential kpps. in reality they are tall mediums /utilities..at the other end of the tall scale they have 5 players at 199cm+ 2 of whom are very good prospects in hampson and kruezer.
setanta o looks to me to be improving every yr considering his background hes done well to date. big bodied fb pinch hit ruckman. waite will play mostly chb thornton as a third tall with both bower and austin both promising developing.
up forward fevola fisher with hartlett and edwards ready to take the next step. you then have older depth players imo ackland cloke and saddington.cloke and akland enables carlton to ease kruezer thru his first yr.


the boy a lot of posters like nathan jones i had reservations about. hes my type of player but his skills had me concerned.still do.


the two boys i had pencilled in at 8 was hurn and drum. i had hurn going at 5 i must admit i was bitterly disappointed we did not take him when it came to our pick. and i will admit i was even more disappointed we took jon with this pick having seen a bit of him at colts level.
the other constant disappointment for me has been we continually overlook the opportunity to use quality picks on our list needs in favour of what we have plenty of.

Kreuzer has form on the board as a forward. CHF and FF. He is at his best in the ruck but has kicked plenty of goals and is able to lead and take contested marks. They were always taking him at 1. the list has heaps of young talls so trading kennedy and getting Kreuzer is fine with them I would hava thought.

They swing Waite back this year to CHB. Will play Jamison at FB (a rookie who can play as a designated rookie). Fisher is out injured. So thats 2 forweards gone from last year. But they have Edwards and Hartlett weho are both set to play in round 1 as the tall forwards along with Fevola. 1 was drafted in 2004 and had bad hammies and the other in 2005 and both will likely battle it out for a permanent spot when Fisher returns in round 2.

So in terms of list structure its not a problem for them. They are not exactly great in the clearances saince Kouta declined. So JUdd fills a very important need (along with Hadley who will also play in their at times). Kreuzer will also play as a tall forward and some ruck this year. they also have Bower and Thornton down back and Setanta who has a shoulder niggle and is a bit behind others after not having a full pre season.

so they have a number of options. Murphy and Gibbs wont get the living suitcase belted out of them when they are in the midfield with the acquisition of Hadley and Judd and the return of stevens who can go back to being a first dibs reciever more and not an in and under. Better suited for that role he was so damaging for when at Port.

They may very well develop Kreuzer as a CHF who is the secondary ruck and just let him roam up and down the wing and play like another midfielder really. Will depend on how Hampson goes. If he makes it then it opens up plenty of options. If he does not then kreuzer will have to ruck more in the future. This is what these ginat athletic types can do. It will be much the same for the team who gets Naitanui.

 

[Scoop]

But looking at the list above Kennedy and Dowler at 4 and 6 are still to show anything much. That's to be expected with young kpps as a rule but also highlisghts why I think you get a better bang for your buck concentrating on mids with high picks and spreading the net wider in search of talls. The flip side is that a real quality tall that makes it like a Riewoldt or Pavlich can set up the rest of your recruiting and structure in years to come. As seen however those two class talls dont gurantee unltimate success. The key there seems to be a spread of skilled and smart layers and effective disposal skills/systems.

I like Clark, but he too runs hot and cold. Terrific potential though.

Carlton's recruiting strategy is curious though. They use pick 4 on a tall and punt him 2 years later, unusual considering the development time for talls. Perhaps a concession that the pick was a mistake. However it seems a real gamble together with punting picks 3 and 20 in this year's draft - They must think their finishing positions in recent years is not an accurate indicator of the ability of the list if they feel they can offload so many early picks.

So many flawed statements in that lot. First round you focus on best available talent. If the talent is borderline maybe you draft for need but mostly talent. After that you draft on a needs basis unless someone stands out from the pack as far as talent goes.

Trading Kennedy is most certainly not a concession that the pick was a mistake. It was smart list management. With pick 1 Carlton was always going to take Kruezer who effectively is a more advanced version of Kennedy. Kruzer can play that tall forward role and also fills a key weakness in there list, ruckman. Hamspon is going along at the right pace and if not injured will be the starting ruckman this Thursday night. Kruzer can get spots in the ruck but mainly will go forward and probably do the ruck work in the forward 50. Same as Kennedy but more long term upside.

People on here laud the Kane Johnson trade for his impact off the ground but in assessing the Judd deal many on PRE fail to acknowledge the impact of having the best footballer in the land will have on those around him at Carlton. Already stories are filtering through of Judd impacting on the playing group off the field and lifting the standards and showing the group what is required to be elite.

 

[the claw]

Kreuzer has form on the board as a forward. CHF and FF. He is at his best in the ruck but has kicked plenty of goals and is able to lead and take contested marks. They were always taking him at 1. the list has heaps of young talls so trading kennedy and getting Kreuzer is fine with them I would hava thought.

They swing Waite back this year to CHB. Will play Jamison at FB (a rookie who can play as a designated rookie). Fisher is out injured. So thats 2 forweards gone from last year. But they have Edwards and Hartlett weho are both set to play in round 1 as the tall forwards along with Fevola. 1 was drafted in 2004 and had bad hammies and the other in 2005 and both will likely battle it out for a permanent spot when Fisher returns in round 2.

So in terms of list structure its not a problem for them. They are not exactly great in the clearances saince Kouta declined. So JUdd fills a very important need (along with Hadley who will also play in their at times). Kreuzer will also play as a tall forward and some ruck this year. they also have Bower and Thornton down back and Setanta who has a shoulder niggle and is a bit behind others after not having a full pre season.

so they have a number of options. Murphy and Gibbs wont get the living suitcase belted out of them when they are in the midfield with the acquisition of Hadley and Judd and the return of stevens who can go back to being a first dibs reciever more and not an in and under. Better suited for that role he was so damaging for when at Port.

They may very well develop Kreuzer as a CHF who is the secondary ruck and just let him roam up and down the wing and play like another midfielder really. Will depend on how Hampson goes. If he makes it then it opens up plenty of options. If he does not then kreuzer will have to ruck more in the future. This is what these ginat athletic types can do. It will be much the same for the team who gets Naitanui.

in your own way basically what i said. and yes you are right with so many 200cm players kruezer could well be developed as a forward this yr.personally ithink hes primarily a ruckman.
as you say kruezer has form on the board as a forward. but still it will be interesting to see how many games he plays and how carlton handle him. they are in a position of where they dont have to rush him.and i think it important that blokes like hartlett start to get regular game time

 

[the claw]

So many flawed statements in that lot. First round you focus on best available talent. If the talent is borderline maybe you draft for need but mostly talent. After that you draft on a needs basis unless someone stands out from the pack as far as talent goes.

Trading Kennedy is most certainly not a concession that the pick was a mistake. It was smart list management. With pick 1 Carlton was always going to take Kruezer who effectively is a more advanced version of Kennedy. Kruzer can play that tall forward role and also fills a key weakness in there list, ruckman. Hamspon is going along at the right pace and if not injured will be the starting ruckman this Thursday night. Kruzer can get spots in the ruck but mainly will go forward and probably do the ruck work in the forward 50. Same as Kennedy but more long term upside.

People on here laud the Kane Johnson trade for his impact off the ground but in assessing the Judd deal many on PRE fail to acknowledge the impact of having the best footballer in the land will have on those around him at Carlton. Already stories are filtering through of Judd impacting on the playing group off the field and lifting the standards and showing the group what is required to be elite.

good post well said.

 

[mojo31]

So many flawed statements in that lot. First round you focus on best available talent. If the talent is borderline maybe you draft for need but mostly talent. After that you draft on a needs basis unless someone stands out from the pack as far as talent goes.

Trading Kennedy is most certainly not a concession that the pick was a mistake. It was smart list management. With pick 1 Carlton was always going to take Kruezer who effectively is a more advanced version of Kennedy. Kruzer can play that tall forward role and also fills a key weakness in there list, ruckman. Hamspon is going along at the right pace and if not injured will be the starting ruckman this Thursday night. Kruzer can get spots in the ruck but mainly will go forward and probably do the ruck work in the forward 50. Same as Kennedy but more long term upside.

People on here laud the Kane Johnson trade for his impact off the ground but in assessing the Judd deal many on PRE fail to acknowledge the impact of having the best footballer in the land will have on those around him at Carlton. Already stories are filtering through of Judd impacting on the playing group off the field and lifting the standards and showing the group what is required to be elite.

i think the poster was just seeing if they could get a reaction out of me. tRying to post anything logical and informative was secondary to that.

I agree with what you are saying SCOOP. The list had a lot of young talls and by trading Kennedy it gives someone an opportunity and also creates one for Kreuzer as well down the line depending on Hampson in the ruck and Hartlett, Edwards, Waite, Fisher, Setanta, Aisake, Jamison, Bower, Thornton, Austin as the "talls" who are all trying to find a spot and a positon long term. The only one who has is Fevola at FF and the rest are scrambling to find a permanent Kp position long term.

All are 24 and under and most are physically ready for a chance. Thornton has shown he is okay as a tall defender and a very good 3rd tall defender. Fisher has shown he is a very good 3rd tall forward with ? on his durability. Waite has shown glimpes of being elite and also glimpses of being a spud at times at both ends. The rest have almost 0 AFL form on the board.

Trading Kennedy just fast tracks one of those talls to get a spot and see if they are up for it. also allows some flexability for Hampson/Kreuzer in the future.

Not the same as Kennedy is still a baby and not a veteran but Hawthorn created space by trading Thompson and Hay and then drafted a number of talls over those 2 years and knew they woiuld need games to be fast tracked.

I would have thought then being decisive with Whitnall last year and not re-signing him was due to the need for some of those talls to get games and see if they were up to it.

Maybe a similar thought to what happened to Gaspar last year.

If a club wanted some young running players to have their best chance of becoming all they can be. Then having an absolute model professional on and off the field as an example would be a huge boon for them. Someone who prepares immaculately, trains as hard as anyone in the AFL, meticulous with his weights, diet and so on and someone not caught up in all the hype and is a very down to earth guy. Shows what to do in games and what to do at training and how to handle the media and stay grounded.

Be that Tambling, Deledio, Cotchin, Edwards or Murphy, Gibbs, Grigg and Walker.

 

[mojo31]

in your own way basically what i said. and yes you are right with so many 200cm players kruezer could well be developed as a forward this yr.personally ithink hes primarily a ruckman.
as you say kruezer has form on the board as a forward. but still it will be interesting to see how many games he plays and how carlton handle him. they are in a position of where they dont have to rush him.and i think it important that blokes like hartlett start to get regular game time

Kreuzer's mobility is even higher than they thought it would be. Seems his slight soreness at draft camp was much more limiting than he let on and his speed off the mark and ability to run down guys and also to lead and get a gap on players is even higher than they thought. So he may well project as a key forward in time who rucks in the forward 50 and runs all over the place.

Hartlett has dodgy hamstrings and has broken down so many times. Most likely gets a chance at it in round 1 but hammies like his at his age does not bode well.

 

[the claw]

Kreuzer's mobility is even higher than they thought it would be. Seems his slight soreness at draft camp was much more limiting than he let on and his speed off the mark and ability to run down guys and also to lead and get a gap on players is even higher than they thought. So he may well project as a key forward in time who rucks in the forward 50 and runs all over the place.

Hartlett has dodgy hamstrings and has broken down so many times. Most likely gets a chance at it in round 1 but hammies like his at his age does not bode well.

i hope for hartletts sake he overcomes his hamstring problems. i know some players have suffered chronically with hammies over their carees but surely in this day and age his problems are fixable.

my interest in hartlett stems from the 2004 draft. my pick 20 choice was a toss up between two kpps hartlett and chad gibson. i went with gibson. yep got that one badly wrong. it didnt matter to us anyway we went with polo who i still have reservations about.

 

[Shers]

I can't believe you guys are claiming Judd is such a great role model, and will have a great influence on the young players.
From what I've seen since Judd has been captain, at both WC and Carlton, is;
Cousins gets on the drugs and loses his career
Fletcher OD's on something and nearly dies
Fevola is out, pissed, at 4am with much less than a week before his first game and does something illegal.

If you ask me, Judd is obviously a shocking influence, and I for one am very glad he isn't "influencing" any of our young guns.

 

[Phar Ace]

I can't believe you guys are claiming Judd is such a great role model, and will have a great influence on the young players.
From what I've seen since Judd has been captain, at both WC and Carlton, is;
Cousins gets on the drugs and loses his career
Fletcher OD's on something and nearly dies
Fevola is out, pissed, at 4am with much less than a week before his first game and does something illegal.

If you ask me, Judd is obviously a shocking influence, and I for one am very glad he isn't "influencing" any of our young guns.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Wasted on here Shersy, there has gotta be a good venue nearby surely?

 

[TIGEREXTRA]

Who gives a *smile* about Judd!!

Wjy are we talking about the scum so much on here?

 

[the claw]

Who gives a sh!t about Judd!!

Wjy are we talking about the scum so much on here?

lots of good reasons.