We Target 3-Net Result-0

[the claw]

lol, mate if the Tigers recruited cloke you would have had kittens. Cloke is a very average player and is exactly the reason Carlton are looking to bolster their ruck division by grabbing Warnock.

it wasnt an endorsement of him it was just a statement that i felt he performed okay this yr. hes 22 drafted the same yr as pattison and are both similar in they both were recruited as kpps. they are also a similar height weight.
people are getting their nickers in a twist because i dare say cloke is a better player than pattison and had a far better yr than him.
ferals dont like this because they openly bag cloke but praise pattison. logic says if they think cloke a dud they must think pattison a dud. but this is not the case.patto is one of ours he must be okay.

 

[GoodOne]

ferals dont like this because they openly bag cloke but praise pattison. logic says if they think cloke a dud they must think pattison a dud. but this is not the case.patto is one of ours he must be okay.

On the contrary, I think most are sceptical of Pattison's ability to make it, I know I am. You did use Carlton as an example of what we should be following in terms of ruck recruitment and all most are saying is Carlton's ruck recruitment is no template to work from.

 

[No 4]

Carlton's ruck division look good due to Judd ball winning.

Cloke is a very average player, who has problems when kicking for goal. Does not put his body in and has problems with his shoulders (each year thus far has missed at least four games a year due to this injury). their other ruckmen are not much better. So if they have five average ruckmen in their side, are they well in front of us?

Its a matter of time when we land one, for the other clubs who have a high number, sooner or later their excess will walk.

 

[Tiger_Shark]

as far as ruckman go there is no doubt we will try to get one in the draft. whether that is Vickery early or another choice at a later pick will depend on how the draft turns out.

whether we trade for an experienced ruckman and delist 1 of our present ones out of Patto/Cartledge/Angus is another decision altogether. It must be either trade and delist 1 or stick with them. we need 4 to cover that area (in case of injuries & i'm not including Putt, who is young and might take a yr with his knee, or a new recruit who will take time to develop).

what i'm looking for in a ruckman is:

1. Good hands - We must look for an effective tap ruckman, someone with a strong grab (can take a contested grab), and is an effective handballer.
2. Good decision maker - We need a smart footballer who will make the correct decisions, knows where to position himself, and can be a leader on the field.
3. Stamina & Pace - whoever we want can't be slow, fullstop, and needs to be able to run out a game. In todays game its too easy to be run off and be a liability. Once opposition teams kow you're slow or unfit they'll exploit it.

Of our 4 ruckman i feel (Putt not included):

Simmonds: Fits the 3 criteria. Is quick enough and has built up his stamina from a few years ago. is a good decision maker. has good hands although could work on his tapwork and the jumping early bizzo.
Patto: Has the stamina & pace (has deceptive pace). Not sure about is decision making, is nothing special. Has not got good hands from the perspective of tapwork and marking (drops plenty with pressure).
Angus: Not sure he ticks any boxes really. Young but needs to improve.
Cartledge: Pace is suspect. Not a good decision maker. Has got good hands. Can take a mark and can tap ok.

Outlook: We desperately need to develop a ruckman to replace Simmo in time. I doubt very much it will come from Cartledge/Angus/Patto.

 

[the claw]

On the contrary, I think most are sceptical of Pattison's ability to make it, I know I am. You did use Carlton as an example of what we should be following in terms of ruck recruitment and all most are saying is Carlton's ruck recruitment is no template to work from.

i disagree. with warnock and without cloke they have 5 genuine ruckmen in their system not including rookies. when the dust settles and carlton have traded delisted who they dont want they will end up with 1 elite ruckman kruezer at pick 1. a p romising second rounder in hampson taken at pick 17 and warnock who was originally taken at 42.i dont include stanta ohailpin as a ruckman even though carlton have played him there a fair bit. i have included his brother. and i have not included the rookie jacobs in my calculations. carlton have done both things to get decent ruckmen. they have used early picks and they have loaded up with late psd and rookie picks their process has been spot on. in fact i dont see a real need to chase warnock they must rate him highly.

people forget kruezer hampson warnock are only 19, 20, and 21 respectively. imo cloke will be kept on and will play in ruck with warnock next yr kruezer will play big chunks of games forward while he does his early apprenticship and warnock will play as the number one ruckman. hampson will be developed further in the twos and if he plays well will get games if others arent performing.

 

[the claw]

as far as ruckman go there is no doubt we will try to get one in the draft. whether that is Vickery early or another choice at a later pick will depend on how the draft turns out.

whether we trade for an experienced ruckman and delist 1 of our present ones out of Patto/Cartledge/Angus is another decision altogether. It must be either trade and delist 1 or stick with them. we need 4 to cover that area (in case of injuries & i'm not including Putt, who is young and might take a yr with his knee, or a new recruit who will take time to develop).

what i'm looking for in a ruckman is:

1. Good hands - We must look for an effective tap ruckman, someone with a strong grab (can take a contested grab), and is an effective handballer.
2. Good decision maker - We need a smart footballer who will make the correct decisions, knows where to position himself, and can be a leader on the field.
3. Stamina & Pace - whoever we want can't be slow, fullstop, and needs to be able to run out a game. In todays game its too easy to be run off and be a liability. Once opposition teams kow you're slow or unfit they'll exploit it.

Of our 4 ruckman i feel (Putt not included):

Simmonds: Fits the 3 criteria. Is quick enough and has built up his stamina from a few years ago. is a good decision maker. has good hands although could work on his tapwork and the jumping early bizzo.
Patto: Has the stamina & pace (has deceptive pace). Not sure about is decision making, is nothing special. Has not got good hands from the perspective of tapwork and marking (drops plenty with pressure).
Angus: Not sure he ticks any boxes really. Young but needs to improve.
Cartledge: Pace is suspect. Not a good decision maker. Has got good hands. Can take a mark and can tap ok.

Outlook: We desperately need to develop a ruckman to replace Simmo in time. I doubt very much it will come from Cartledge/Angus/Patto.

very nice post. the crux of the matter is most dont want to admit cartledge graham and pattison are more than likely not going to make it. it only leaves putt long term and theres no real guarantees there.

 

[momentai]

That article says Hawthorn are keen to secure Mundy not that he wants to go there. He reportedly told Freo we were his preferred club. Although if I were him I'd prefer Hawthorn for obvious reasons. Having said that I hope he will go there because we don't need him.
As for ruckmen I'd bite the bullet, keep Cartledge and Graham and draft a young ruckman.

Pretty good player with very good disposal and way way better than Mcmahon. Also interesting that Freo have already lost 6 due to retirement and probably several others including Warnock and Mundy who have both asked to be transferred back to Melbourne, in Mundy's case to us.

In these circumstances they may be prepared to consider up to two of our fringe players, possibly well suited to playing at Subiaco. King, Mcmahon :hihi, Raines, and possibly Casserly and Hyde could also come into it but in any event I wouldn't write him off just because the Hawks are also interested. As for recruiting a 'mature' ruckman I think Seaby should be preferred to either Griffen or Taylor.

 

[momentai]

very nice post. the crux of the matter is most dont want to admit cartledge graham and pattison are more than likely not going to make it. it only leaves putt long term and theres no real guarantees there.

I think Pattison will turn it on in 09. His stamina advantage and round the ground work will make him much more effective with 4 boundary umpires at work.

 

[Tiger_Shark]

very nice post. the crux of the matter is most dont want to admit cartledge graham and pattison are more than likely not going to make it. it only leaves putt long term and theres no real guarantees there.

agreed.

its not about next year. i think we can get by provided Simmo is injury-free.

its about planning for 3-4 yrs time and beyond. can't bear to imagine Carlstink with Kreuzer/Warnock going against us with Cartledge/Patto

 

[jb03]

I think Pattison will turn it on in 09. His stamina advantage and round the ground work will make him much more effective with 4 boundary umpires at work.

Unfortunately stamina doesn't count for much these days with all the rotations. I'd rather a skilled tall that can take an overhead with no stamina in lieu of a tall that has stamina as his greatest asset.

 

[jb03]

no one said they all do but it seems most do hold their value or retain some sort of value regardless of performance.

Including Patto? What would Patto be worth if shopped around?

 

[blx]

How many times do you reckon you saw him play this year?

6-7 games. thought he improved each time.

although one week he had a blinder. i think it was against Box Hill?/Northern Bullants? at home.

rested forward and took strong contested marks then goaled.

just want him to have FULL preseason so we can see abit more of him.

going with Fantas age table, Ruckman are around 23-24 years old before they start hitting there straps. thats still 2-3 years away!

 

[Tiger_Shark]

I think Pattison will turn it on in 09. His stamina advantage and round the ground work will make him much more effective with 4 boundary umpires at work.

look, i would be keeping Patto. if we traded for a new ruckman i would be looking to offload Cartledge or Angus.

i don't doubt Patto's endeavour or pace/stamina. its the rest of his game that i'm unsure about. i feel he will never be elite and at best will be a 2nd ruckman.

if i was proved wrong i'd be happy but at present i don't see it.

 

[Phar Ace]

6-7 games. thought he improved each time.

although one week he had a blinder. i think it was against Box Hill?/Northern Bullants? at home.

rested forward and took strong contested marks then goaled.

just want him to have FULL preseason so we can see abit more of him.

going with Fantas age table, Ruckman are around 23-24 years old before they start hitting there straps. thats still 2-3 years away!

Thanks BLX, can value that opinion a little more now knowing it's based of quite a few sightings. It's so easy to go around call DUD....DUD....DUD. The Dud rate after Round 3 of the NDraft is pretty high, so just going new kids all the time ain't the answer either. It's a blend that is required and sounds like Graham deserves a little more time perhaps.

Patto still only had three seasons and had to carry more in his second season that he ought to have .... he too deserves a little more time yet!

 

[CarnTheTiges]

ctt you miss the point. carltonwill have 6 ruckmen on their list in recent times they have had others as well. they have the numbers duds or not. the process is now to keep the better ones and trade/delist the lesser ones.
also with warnock they are in the position to delist /trade cloke ohailpin ackland. or keep cloke and turn him into a kpf. the idea is probably to turn kruezer into a kpp and go with hampson and warnock in ruck.

So essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if you have duds on your list as long as they're tall duds? When Wallace first came in we had the following players either already playing in the ruck or capable of doing so: Ottens, Stafford and Ray Hall. Ottens decided he didn't want to play for less money than he was getting and left, to cover the gap we traded for Simmonds and used one of the picks we got for Ottens to draft Pattison. We then secured Knobel via the PSD. That gave us 5 possible ruckmen. Stafford retired and Hall and Knobel were forced to retire due to injury. At present we have Simmonds, Pattison, Graham, Putt and Cartledge who can all ruck with varying degrees of success. Assuming we promote Cartledge and keep Graham on the list, then draft a young ruckman that will give us 6 ruckmen on the list. A couple of duds and some that show promise. Not a lot different to Carlton from where I sit and as I said Carlton do not have Warnock yet and there is no guarantee that he will wind up there. That article was written by Greg Denham, what's his success rate like with these things?

 

[GoodOne]

i disagree. with warnock and without cloke they have 5 genuine ruckmen in their system not including rookies. when the dust settles and carlton have traded delisted who they dont want they will end up with 1 elite ruckman kruezer at pick 1. a p romising second rounder in hampson taken at pick 17 and warnock who was originally taken at 42.i dont include stanta ohailpin as a ruckman even though carlton have played him there a fair bit. i have included his brother. and i have not included the rookie jacobs in my calculations. carlton have done both things to get decent ruckmen. they have used early picks and they have loaded up with late psd and rookie picks their process has been spot on. in fact i dont see a real need to chase warnock they must rate him highly.

people forget kruezer hampson warnock are only 19, 20, and 21 respectively. imo cloke will be kept on and will play in ruck with warnock next yr kruezer will play big chunks of games forward while he does his early apprenticship and warnock will play as the number one ruckman. hampson will be developed further in the twos and if he plays well will get games if others arent performing.

Kruezer would have gone to whoever had first pick so I dont think that counts as planning (or maybe it does via the tank). Hampson looks promising for sure. Warnock is not at Carlton yet, there is no guarantee he will be going there. Stanta OHailpin, 25yo and borderline player, his brother is 23 and hasn't played game. So who else Jacobs?

So what have we, Putt=Hampson, Kruezer=Vickery (maybe wishful thinking); Simmonds, Cartledge, Graham = 2 x O Hailpins & Jacobs; Cloke and Ackland = Pattison not really ruckmen.

I don't see alot of difference. Richmond have concentrated predominantly on the midfield in the past. If we have two youngsters Putt and a Vickery type coming through and Simmonds can get through another two years, and we can maybe pick up a recycled stop-gap ruckman for a year or two, in 3 years time we'll be looking quite strong.

I just don't think using Carlton as the yarstick is appropriate. I'd be looking at the Geelongs and West Coast and Swans, the successful teams to see how they have handled the ruckman situation rather than an untried and yet unproven outfit named Carlton.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

just two questions and a yes or no answer would be appreciated.
do you think it unreasonable to predict a bottom 4 finish next yr and do you think its a certainty that we will finish above 12th.

and in reply to your post i dont see me bagging to many kids do you. unless saying someone cant kick or or cant find the ball or are skinny is bagging i thought that just pointing out home truths.
the only one ive given it to is pattison. someone whos had 4 yrs and just doesnt look up to it. schulz cops it hes had 6yrs and is not a kid in the footy sense .
no madcow i think you just dont like hearing the truth. kids are the only way forward and they need to be played the reality is which you so dislike is that some are not good enough and are indeed duds at this level.if that makes me a hypocrite so be it.
HMM HYPOCRITE has a nice ring to it dont you think.especially when your right.

you see madcow unlike the club and ferals like your good self who want to hang onto players forever who have the attitude of, oh just one more yr hes gunna come good but they never do and we end up wasting another 4 yrs. im prepared to make a call on players after 4 yrs god forbid even before sometimes.

and please madcow get it right i was hoping for a bottom 2 finish at the start of the yr pick 1 and 2 would be nice right now. lets see rich and lets just say one of watts hurley ziebel natanui would be real nice right now. but for you to see these kids running around for other teams is perfectly acceptable because we won a few games against bottom 8 sides. it boils down to 2 quality kids in the cotchin class or a few meaningless wins against battling teams. your that naieve i suppose you think we will win a premiership next yr.
one final question for you what would you rather. cotchin at richmond or 4 or 5 extra wins.

We wont have to worry about the bottom -12th next year.Thats my prediction.
Whereas yours is WANT TO.
For the sake of high draft picks.
Tell ya what claw seeing that your more interested in high draft picks.Why dont you get in early and join the Gold Coast.Start up a forum and you can get your jolly,s off come 2010.

 

[doherz]

sheesh what a silly post. i dont think anyone is suggesting we are ready to contend in fact im tipping bottom 4 next yr and in all likelyhood finishes around that area for the next 2 or 3 yrs.
but in 4 yrs time warnock is 25 and in his prime putt would be what 23 24. theres nothing wrong in trading for good 21 yolds.i would hope in 4 yrs time theres an extra 3 ruckmen on the list with at least one we are reasonably certain of.

bottom 4 next year? You prove my point further, re: being delluded. Stay off the gas bro. ;D

 

[the claw]

We wont have to worry about the bottom -12th next year.Thats my prediction.
Whereas yours is WANT TO.
For the sake of high draft picks.
Tell ya what claw seeing that your more interested in high draft picks.Why dont you get in early and join the Gold Coast.Start up a forum and you can get your jolly,s off come 2010.

nice evasion of 3 perfectly legit questions i suppose that answers my questions sheesh and you call me a hypocrite.
just in case you change your mind the questions were.

1 do you think it unreasonable to predict a bottom 4 finish next yr.
2 do you think it a certainty we will finish above 12th next yr.
3 what would you rather cotchin at richmond or 4 or 5 extra wins.
pretty straight forward questions that only require a yes or no.

 

[barty boy]

claw just interested whether you think theres an upside to Richmonds future at all?Do you think we are still that far behind the rest of the teams