When do the rest of our inept senior players get "Gaspered"?

[Ruthless Tigers ?]

This is an interesting comment Madcow - I attended a pres lunch last year (saints r 22) and TW made mention of KB and the mistake the RFC had made by moving him on as he made the hard decisions and blooded the kids. The RFC didn't have the patience to go through the pain so bye bye KB.

I know TW is forming an argument to protect himself but he named players like W. Campbell, Naish, Daffy etc and stated that Swooper was the beneficiary of KBs tenure.

Any comments as I found this quite interesting...

Thats why I said in another thread TW will not reap the reward but our next coach.....whoever that is will reap the benefits as teh hard work would have been completed, the dead wood pruned and the kids developing their own culture. The current culture is one of ineptitude and nobody will change this until the older guys are gone. Why persist with guys today that wont be there tomorrow when success comes are way?

The tough calls have to be made for the long term success of our club....not based on semimental reasons either.

 

[TigerMasochist]

kids like edwards and connors and riewoldt jackson polo thursfield white mcguane at the very least are going to have a red hot go. of course some seniors need to play but if you have a choice between say tivendale and edwards for a wing position you have to pick edwards.

Would have sworn on a stack of bibles that all the young kids you just mentioned played some senior footy last year Claw. They'll play plenty more this year too.
The question posed was not which kids get senior games or when but who do we wipe out to give them games.
The simple, rational and logical response if you want your side to improve is to promote the kids on merit and demote the unsatisfactory senior players as the young kids reach or pass their standard.
Banging in half a dozen extra undersized underfit kids that are not ready for senior footy will create more problems than it solves by overburdening not only them but the rest of the side left to try and cope with no senior standard players around them.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

This is an interesting comment Madcow - I attended a pres lunch last year (saints r 22) and TW made mention of KB and the mistake the RFC had made by moving him on as he made the hard decisions and blooded the kids. The RFC didn't have the patience to go through the pain so bye bye KB.

I know TW is forming an argument to protect himself but he named players like W. Campbell, Naish, Daffy etc and stated that Swooper was the beneficiary of KBs tenure.

Any comments as I found this quite interesting...

Well i suppose the big difference to now and back then is a few things:
*Money-Its taken awhile but finally we have money to throw into the football dept whereas back in Kb,s days we didnt have 2 cents to rub togeather.
*We have a great relationship with Coburg and Calder Cannons for that matter.This is very important for the development of our kids although im a bit peeved we didnt try harder to keep Andy Collins at Coburg.In Kb,s days there was no difference from playing seniors or reserves.Both sides came under the same rotting umbrella.

Interesting Tw mentioned swooper as the beneficiary of Kb,s tenure.Isnt 2011 in that time frame to what terry was eluding to last year

 

[Thylacene]

Well i suppose the big difference to now and back then is a few things:
*Money-Its taken awhile but finally we have money to throw into the football dept whereas back in Kb,s days we didnt have 2 cents to rub togeather.
*We have a great relationship with Coburg and Calder Cannons for that matter.This is very important for the development of our kids although im a bit peeved we didnt try harder to keep Andy Collins at Coburg.In Kb,s days there was no difference from playing seniors or reserves.Both sides came under the same rotting umbrella.

Interesting Tw mentioned swooper as the beneficiary of Kb,s tenure.Isnt 2011 in that time frame to what terry was eluding to last year

Ha - possibly - next function is this week so I'll let you know what the spin is to sum up the pre season...

 

[hellenictiger]

Waste of time Gasparing anyone.
Why give free games to a kid who hasn't got the discipline, workrate, hunger or talent to become a senior player by actually playing excellent footy at the second level.
Give a softcock easy games in the seniors 'coz he's got nice hair and all you will have is an extra softcock bludging around in the seniors to rant at.
If the up and comers are good enough to put in the quality at Coburg put them in the seniors but for christsake they must earn the right.

Spot on!!

Cheap kicks in the one's will not do anyone favours.

 

[mld]

If Gasparing means letting established seniors know that they were competing for their spot on form with the kids, then I'm all for it.

 

[Blueyboy74]

I have been thinking bout the playing list and what each player needs to achieve to keep his spot on the list

Fine = players who I believe will be good contributers throughout the year and will be solid

Coming = players who, with a good year, will cement themselves in the team and have the potential to be very good (confident that these players will make it, if haven't already)

Concerns = these are players who with a good year can also cement themselves in the team but with a bad year (form, injury, playing style etc.) might be looking shaky

Need a good year = players who with a bad year will probably be retired or delisted

Last Chance = players who are on their last chance, need to show something to be retained and even then could be delisted

Time = New players, have time on their hands, only bad behaviour could get them delisted

I have probably missed someone, just started writing and it kept going, it is good to assess each player as it has given me hope even if we have a bad year.

Fine
Foley - the midfield atm, hopefully can shake tags, will need help
Newman - will step up with leadership responsiblities, always consistent
Richo - will be up and down, needs to start playing a lesser role
Lids - needs to be played in one position (hopefully midfield with rests forward), sublime skills
Bowden - backline leader, high possession winner, hopefully can be freed to play HFF
Pettifer - has become consistent, leadership will be good for him, needs to work on defensive pressure
Simmonds - main ruck, injury the only concern, great around the ground
King - adds mongrel and hardness, high possession winner, BP is his atm
Brown - will always fine the goals, smart and skillful, injury only concern
Thursfield - great coming back from a knee, very tight and has good disposal, would love to have the luxury of playing him as third tall, will hold down FB

Coming
Bling - is settling in and with some more steady improvement will become a mainstay of the midfield
Polo - if he can be injury free will become a very good tagger as he can get his own ball as well
Edwards - just needs to put on some more bulk
Connors - a few injuries like Polo with a full season will give mongrel and some tricks
Coughlan - coming off two knees will just need to get some game time
Morton - hopefully will work great with Pettifer, can go into the midfield, good skills
Pattison - great around the ground and can rest forward, runs all day and if he can improve his tapwork will be a very good ruck/forward

Concerns
Tuck - disposal is the key, if he can hurt with his possessions will be fine, if he keeps turning it over and cannot improve in this area is looking a bit shaky
Raines - needs to find a position, if back needs to work on decision making and disposal, if middle or wing needs to work on possessions and delivery into forwardline
Polak - like Raines needs to find a position, not third man up, either CHB or CHF has to be accountable if CHB, but being versitile if he can make one his own then can be swapped (eg. Hunter) for bursts or if needed
JON - fast, tall and sliky but has to work very hard on decision making if he can get this right has (sorry but i have to use the dreaded word) potential
Hughes - There is FF and CHF waiting for someone to take hold of and make their own, if Hughes can get consistency into his game as well as intensity and second efforts then one of these positions will be his
Riewoldt - Like Hughes can make one of FF or CHF his but needs to work on speed and getting into games (finding the ball)
Casserly - injury is the main thing stopping him from becoming a regular
McMahon - Again disposal is the key for Jordy, if it isn't up to scratch then there is plenty ready to take his place, is fast and with good skills can become a regular
Graham - Tall and good hitouts, needs to work on his around the ground skills, seems pretty safe with dearth of rucks
McGuane - good third tall, injuries late hurt him

Need a good year
White - Stagnated last year, has speed and hardness, needs to work on disposal and finding the ball and has to find a position, with a bad year potential to be delisted
Johnson - injury is a concern and is looking a bit slow, adds leadership, will need to stay injury free and good form or may be retired
Tivendale - is becoming a fringe player and wil need to keep in the starting 22 or could be in trouble, great kick, but one sided and can go missing when the chips are down, a good year will give him another year on the list
Hyde - one sided, will need to break into the 22, has to improve his decision making, even an ok year could see him in trouble
Jackson - adds hardness and mongrel, will need to work on skills and finding the ball as can go missing, a bad year will put him in trouble

Last Chance
schulz - has had opurtunities, is a great kick but cannot find the ball at times, a bad year and he is gone needs to find a position
Moore - like schulz has had opurtunities, if he gets injuries will be gone, really a third tall
Meyer - has all the tools, needs to get over injuries and get some gametime, if he cannot shake injuries will be gone
Howat (r) - being a mature age rookie is really only backup for injuries, if he gets a chance must take it with both hands
Sylvestor (r) - see Howat
Carteledge (r) - see Howat

Time
Cotchin - time for some crystal balling, great skills, can find the ball, will be very good
Rance - Big defender that we need
Putt - tall and mobile, can go forward or ruck, can see him working in great partnership with Patto
Gourdis - Potential, fast and great leap, needs time
Collins - Starting to fill out, next year will have to start showing something
Collard (r) - With good behaviour could get a senior spot, needs to work on stamina

Good post D-Rod Pretty much where I see the boys. Would perhaps have Riewoldt in the "time" category. One thing for certain is that a player I don't rate will step up and surprise us all whilst on the flip-side a player that we can usually rely on will have an "annus horribilis" and never be the same again!

 

[RedanTiger]

This is an interesting comment Madcow - I attended a pres lunch last year (saints r 22) and TW made mention of KB and the mistake the RFC had made by moving him on as he made the hard decisions and blooded the kids. The RFC didn't have the patience to go through the pain so bye bye KB.

I know TW is forming an argument to protect himself but he named players like W. Campbell, Naish, Daffy etc and stated that Swooper was the beneficiary of KBs tenure.

Any comments as I found this quite interesting...

TW seems to be eyeing the exit door already and trying to establish his legacy at Richmond.

The main thing about Northey's team was they were tough, unrelenting and had a killer instinct. Don't remember them being particularly highly skilled, just exerted a lot of pressure on the opposition and went for it. This is the key difference between Wallace's LIST and Northey's TEAM.

IMO the year that Jeans had at Richmond between KB and Northey was probably more the reason for Northey's success than anything KB did. Jeans always presented hard-at-it teams and I think he told a few home truths about the list before he left and Northey took over where he left off.

TW is also probably trying to get KB onside to protect his own back as well.

 

[the claw]

Would have sworn on a stack of bibles that all the young kids you just mentioned played some senior footy last year Claw. They'll play plenty more this year too.
The question posed was not which kids get senior games or when but who do we wipe out to give them games.
The simple, rational and logical response if you want your side to improve is to promote the kids on merit and demote the unsatisfactory senior players as the young kids reach or pass their standard.
Banging in half a dozen extra undersized underfit kids that are not ready for senior footy will create more problems than it solves by overburdening not only them but the rest of the side left to try and cope with no senior standard players around them.

as i said theres a flip side once again we disagree.
every yr this same debate comes up. every yr the old hacks are played and every yr the same thing happens.
you can quite easily make up a side with 10 12 14 under 22s that has good size height and a sprinklling of experience across the board. its very easy to pick a side with no pettifer tivendale hyde bowden etc in fact i often do.
** = under 22. /= either playerfor a position.

all things being equal no injuries heres a team of 22. you put them in position.
ruckmen - simmo graham*.

kpps - richo, pattison* /riewoldt*, hughes *, thursfield*, polak, rance*/mcguane*

mids onballers and flankers - brown, cotchin*, edwards*, deledio*, coughlan, connors*, foley, polo* king, morton*, tuck, newman, raines*, and jackson*.
tambling*,

thats 14 22 and unders. 6 are 22 this yr they become fully fledged seniors this yr. but theres only two first yr players rance and cotchin.they wont play every game they may only play a handful.
theres no bowden, hyde, tivendale, pettifer,moore, schulz.mcmahon.johnson.
once you put them in position i ask what do we lose by not playing those underachievers and overseers of long term mediocrity.
the contentious one i suppose is bowden. imo its more important to get structure right and games into our young kpds. thats 3 spots down back gone. king for defensive pressure chasing harassing one spot for pace and skill. one spot for mongrel which we dont have so lets give it to a kid its a great development position is h/b.

a replacement for replacement scenario would be.
connors for johnson.
riewoldt/ hughes for schulz.
cotchin/morton for pettifer.
rance for moore/bowden.
morton for mcmahon.
edwards for tivendale
polo for hyde.
theres plenty of variations you could do. theres only one loss there. imo thats rance but if fit and capable we need to play rance if possible as much as we can.
as you say a lot of the kids have been played a bit. theres no excuse to not keep on playing them.

 

[Ruthless Tigers ?]

as i said theres a flip side once again we disagree.
every yr this same debate comes up. every yr the old hacks are played and every yr the same thing happens.
you can quite easily make up a side with 10 12 14 under 22s that has good size height and a sprinklling of experience across the board. its very easy to pick a side with no pettifer tivendale hyde bowden etc in fact i often do.
** = under 22. /= either playerfor a position.

all things being equal no injuries heres a team of 22. you put them in position.
ruckmen - simmo graham*.

kpps - richo, pattison* /riewoldt*, hughes *, thursfield*, polak, rance*/mcguane*

mids onballers and flankers - brown, cotchin*, edwards*, deledio*, coughlan, connors*, foley, polo* king, morton*, tuck, newman, raines*, and jackson*.
tambling*,

thats 14 22 and unders. 6 are 22 this yr they become fully fledged seniors this yr. but theres only two first yr players rance and cotchin.they wont play every game they may only play a handful.
theres no bowden, hyde, tivendale, pettifer,moore, schulz.mcmahon.johnson.
once you put them in position i ask what do we lose by not playing those underachievers and overseers of long term mediocrity.
the contentious one i suppose is bowden. imo its more important to get structure right and games into our young kpds. thats 3 spots down back gone. king for defensive pressure chasing harassing one spot for pace and skill. one spot for mongrel which we dont have so lets give it to a kid its a great development position is h/b.

a replacement for replacement scenario would be.
connors for johnson.
riewoldt/ hughes for schulz.
cotchin/morton for pettifer.
rance for moore/bowden.
morton for mcmahon.
edwards for tivendale
polo for hyde.
theres plenty of variations you could do. theres only one loss there. imo thats rance but if fit and capable we need to play rance if possible as much as we can.
as you say a lot of the kids have been played a bit. theres no excuse to not keep on playing them.

claw when I first arrived I scoffed at your posts but the more frustrated I become the more log9ical your comments.....there is no room for the same old......we have gotten nowhere with Tiva, Bowden etal and oh yeah whatshisname.....we need to seriously build the kids and build a nucleas for the future andget rid of the me me me mentality and the sentimental attitude ta RIchmond and develop a win at all costs attitude like we had. We are a lughing stock and will continue in the vein until we show we can make tough calls....what ahve we got to lose....NOTHING!....what have we got to gain...RESPECT...and we have none of that. Ask yourself....why did Judd choose Carlton? Seriously. We couldnt secure Lockett eyars ago when he wanted Richmond....I am sure even Carey wanted RIchmond...but we couldnt stitch the deal. We are inept and until we get serious and show some ruthlessness we are destined to achive ZIP....and I cant wait for the club to prove me wrong!

 

[Harry]

as i said theres a flip side once again we disagree.
every yr this same debate comes up. every yr the old hacks are played and every yr the same thing happens.
you can quite easily make up a side with 10 12 14 under 22s that has good size height and a sprinklling of experience across the board. its very easy to pick a side with no pettifer tivendale hyde bowden etc in fact i often do.
** = under 22. /= either playerfor a position.

all things being equal no injuries heres a team of 22. you put them in position.
ruckmen - simmo graham*.

kpps - richo, pattison* /riewoldt*, hughes *, thursfield*, polak, rance*/mcguane*

mids onballers and flankers - brown, cotchin*, edwards*, deledio*, coughlan, connors*, foley, polo* king, morton*, tuck, newman, raines*, and jackson*.
tambling*,

thats 14 22 and unders. 6 are 22 this yr they become fully fledged seniors this yr. but theres only two first yr players rance and cotchin.they wont play every game they may only play a handful.
theres no bowden, hyde, tivendale, pettifer,moore, schulz.mcmahon.johnson.
once you put them in position i ask what do we lose by not playing those underachievers and overseers of long term mediocrity.
the contentious one i suppose is bowden. imo its more important to get structure right and games into our young kpds. thats 3 spots down back gone. king for defensive pressure chasing harassing one spot for pace and skill. one spot for mongrel which we dont have so lets give it to a kid its a great development position is h/b.

a replacement for replacement scenario would be.
connors for johnson.
riewoldt/ hughes for schulz.
cotchin/morton for pettifer.
rance for moore/bowden.
morton for mcmahon.
edwards for tivendale
polo for hyde.
theres plenty of variations you could do. theres only one loss there. imo thats rance but if fit and capable we need to play rance if possible as much as we can.
as you say a lot of the kids have been played a bit. theres no excuse to not keep on playing them.

Good post claw. Personally I wouldn't bother with Tuck, Jackson and Raines.

There was no reason why we didn't go with this logic in the NAB cup. We have always gone with the older senior types in the NAB cup and always come away with a comfortable loss.