Who are we supporting to win the flag now we are out?

[DavidSSS]

It’s funny how you don’t see the irony in accusing someone else of being deliberately argumentative.

You initially claimed Scott was a better coach; nothing about a match day coach. Anyway, wins and losses are not just down to match day coaching. There is a lot more to it than that. Hardwick’s win loss record is worse than Scott’s mainly because he took over the worst team in the AFL at a club that was only just pulling itself out of the mire. Scott took over a side that had won 2 flags in the previous 4 seasons and made PF at least in the other 2. At a club that what’s been very well run in all areas for many years. If it was a 100m race Scott had 70m head start over Hardwick.

But as for now a argument that it is only about Scott being a better match day coach, so what. I don’t necessarily agree with that but it is only one part of what makes a great coach. Dimma has him covered. Winning 3 flags from what was a rabble when he took over is testament to that.

Mate, really don't bother, it is pointless arguing with some people.

TBR claiming best match day coach as opposed to best coach. Well, look at post 18 in this thread and, yes indeed, it does say "best match day coach". But, more revealing is looking at the reply to that post, which would reflect the post as it was written, and it shows that the post originally stated "clearly the best coach in the competition". The post was edited 24 hours later. Removed clearly, added match day. Changes the narrative then claims he never wrote that, sound like any organisation you might be familiar with?

Anyway, go Swans, I reckon they play a great brand of footy and are a big chance to win it all.

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

No, makes sense. Athletes who win Olympic Gold medals are another weak indicator of success too.

What about athletes who set world records or regularly win on the international circuit and at the annual world championships. Does one moderate performance at an Olympics denote the value of their careers????

 

[tigertim]

What about athletes who set world records or regularly win on the international circuit and at the annual world championships. Does one moderate performance at an Olympics denote the value of their careers????

Ah, the “what about“ question, excellent….

To answer this question, possibly not but the “value of their careers” is an athlete who regularly won on the international circuit and at the world championships. But the “value of their career” is not as an Olympic gold medalist.

 

[tigerman]

Towner's Southport are into the VFL preliminary final, I'll be rooting for them and Towner.

 

[saigon tiger]

Towner's Southport are into the VFL preliminary final, I'll be rooting for them and Towner.

I hope Southport win it also. I'm an old mate of Gavin Mcgaune Luke's dad. He is a Southport legend and his health has been poor the last year or so. He was a bloody good footballer in his own right!

 

[taztiger4]

Unless you've sat in the coaches box on multiple occasions, how the hell could you know if anyone is a good game day coach ?

Makes me laugh when people say that coach x was out coached

 

[The Big Richo]

So the coach that panics and throws out all his pre match planning is a better 'match day' coach than the one who remains calm and backs his system?

I'm sorry to be so blunt but that comment shows that you (and the people who support it) are either so closed-minded when it comes to opposition sides, or so lacking in understanding of what goes into the sport at the elite level that you are not capable of understanding the intricacies of AFL coaching.

Panics and throws out all his planning? Try has spent years planning and running scenarios and educating his players on what happens in various situations in a game. If we lose a player in this role, this, this and this will happen. What do you think they do all day?

No, makes sense. Athletes who win Olympic Gold medals are another weak indicator of success too.

That's a nonsense comparison. No-one wins an Olympic Gold medal without being in the top echelon of competitors in their sport.

An AFL premiership is won by an elite team, not necessarily the best of the individuals. The very best of players and coaches often don't win a premiership medal, that rarely happens with an Olympic event.

Cameron Mooney won a medal without touching the ball, other players have spent almost all the game on the bench. Marlion Pickett won one in his very first game. It's not a measure of individual success.

Coaching is a bit different because it is a much smaller field and an elite performance to steer a team to a premiership but there are a lot of links needed to form the chain that the coach has no impact on, so the opportunity is not always there. Many, many excellent coaches do not win premierships.

 

[Baloo]

Yes they do have different opinions, on that I'm in furious agreement. But lets forget that and look at the facts:

Flags Scott 1 Dimma 3

Existing ladder posi when commencing Scott 2 (2010) Dimma 15 (2009) (this obviously impacts the much quoted Scott H&A W/L)

Finals head to head Scott 0 Dimma 3

So there's some facts, not opinion. But accroding to your opinion, in spite of these facts, Scotty is "clearly" the superior coach, in a league of his own above the next tier.

as I said, to suggest IYO Scott is better is fine, to suggest clearly better is Donald Trump-esque whackyland.

The reason we won those Grand Finals, and finals against Geelong, is not because Dimma is a better matchday coach, it's because Emma Murray was working for us and she was able to nullify Salty's superior skill through meditation.

 

[jamo]

Freo for me, why not, as long as Melbourne doesn't win back to back, as I could not stand them comparing their era to ours. So Go Lions next week.

 

[tigersnake]

Cameron Mooney won a medal without touching the ball, other players have spent almost all the game on the bench. Marlion Pickett won one in his very first game. It's not a measure of individual success.

You're making some decent arguments BR, but this isn't one of them. Yes there are other measures of success, yes premiership success is not the only measure, but to suggest it isn't a measure of individual success? well not sure what else to say, it defies logic.

Even the extreme examples you give, its still a measure of individual success. Mooney got selected to sit in the bench in the GF, thats a measure of success. Not as high as playing and playing well, but better than not being selected. Ditto Pickett, his performance on the day and being selected is a measure of success. I can't believe I'm even arguing this actually.

 

[eZyT]

You're not listening. I am talking about the time between the ball being bounced and the final siren going.

If your measuring hardwick and scott head to head in a coaching matchrace,

And your talking about first bounce until HALF TIME siren,

Then scott wins easily

 

[eZyT]

Towner's Southport are into the VFL preliminary final, I'll be rooting for them and Towner.

There is a very passionate and real rivalry between sthport and suns tman,

This game will be a doozy,

And theres the bizarrely real possibility

Of an all-queensland, Victorian Football League grandfinal

 

[The Big Richo]

You're making some decent arguments BR, but this isn't one of them. Yes there are other measures of success, yes premiership success is not the only measure, but to suggest it isn't a measure of individual success? well not sure what else to say, it defies logic.

Even the extreme examples you give, its still a measure of individual success. Mooney got selected to sit in the bench in the GF, thats a measure of success. Not as high as playing and playing well, but better than not being selected. Ditto Pickett, his performance on the day and being selected is a measure of success. I can't believe I'm even arguing this actually.

Yes, that's fair. The point was really that just because you win a premiership, it doesn't say anything about how good you are compared to someone who didn't. It doesn't say anything about individual success in that context.

For example the vast majority of premiership players aren't as good as Nate Fyffe or Nathan Buckley or Robert harvey, or Gary Ablett or Tony Lockett. Riewoldt and Lynch aren't as good as Richo, Graham and Pickett aren't as good as Campbell and Knights.

Not having a premiership doesn't diminish your success as a player or coach, having one adds to your record but it is certainly not critical to being a great player or coach.

 

[Brodders17]

I'm sorry to be so blunt but that comment shows that you (and the people who support it) are either so closed-minded when it comes to opposition sides, or so lacking in understanding of what goes into the sport at the elite level that you are not capable of understanding the intricacies of AFL coaching.

Panics and throws out all his planning? Try has spent years planning and running scenarios and educating his players on what happens in various situations in a game. If we lose a player in this role, this, this and this will happen. What do you think they do all day?

I am aware coaches would come up with all sorts of plans and counter plans, outside of game time, they then have to choose which to implement and when.

What do you consider match day coaching?
You've said Hardwick isnt great cos he just backs his system, but Scott is cos he also backs his system?

Ultimately all coaches are making choices about when to make changes, what changes to make, and when to stick with their original plan. Hardwick's record in big finals suggests he gets that choice right more often than not, and Scott; record suggests maybe he doesnt.

Anything else is opinion. and we know what opinions are like.

 

[tigersnake]

we know what opinions are like.

I used to know this one, is it rissoles?

 

[spook]

Riewoldt and Lynch aren't as good as Richo, Graham and Pickett aren't as good as Campbell and Knights.

I never thought I'd say this but I reckon Jack's been a better player than Richo. All things considered. Impact. Smarts. Clutchness.

(Pickett better than Campbell too. )

 

[MD Jazz]

I never thought I'd say this but I reckon Jack's been a better player than Richo. All things considered. Impact. Smarts. Clutchness.

You could definitely mount an argument for each of them. Jack the better team player.

 

[The Big Richo]

I never thought I'd say this but I reckon Jack's been a better player than Richo. All things considered. Impact. Smarts. Clutchness.

(Pickett better than Campbell too. )

Unless it's Wayne Carey, I'm taking Richo above all others, but I love him so it's not a fair fight.

I dislike Campbell immensely but 4 JD medals and three runner-ups, a couple of All-Australians and won a swag of competition wide awards over 300 odd games. Pickett will want to get moving to get anywhere near that.

What do you consider match day coaching?
You've said Hardwick isnt great cos he just backs his system, but Scott is cos he also backs his system?

I'll try and explain what I mean using the Vlastuin example from the Grand Final.

Vlastuin goes down and we don't change anything structurally, we just manipulate personnel into the existing roles. So Broad moves into the role Vlastuin was playing, McIntosh takes over the role Broad was in, Castagna and Rioli take McIntosh's role on the wing.
Nothing needs to change in terms of the way the team plays, everyone understands the roles in the team and can run them. Then at halftime they adjust personnel again, still keeping the same roles, but Astbury becomes the anchor, Balta spends some time as the second ruck etc...

Hours and hours of preparation means the players understand the method and the team is able to function at the same high standard with minimal disruption, despite losing a star.

Now a hypothetical if Tom Stewart is taken out in the same illegal, immoral way in the upcoming Grand Final. My guess is if that happened Geelong won't try and replace him like for like, but they will roll Guthrie back instead. Blicavs will drop his role as the grunt wing/second ruck and roll back off the wing at each bounce. Rather than attempting to create intercept marks for Stewart, they will use Blicavs to give them ground ball opportunities in defence to give Bews, Guthrie. Tuohy and the midfielders.
Without the stop play from defence they will have Cameron roll up to be the outlet kick target and with Hawkins having to pinch hit as the second ruck, they will tweak offence by increasing Dangerfield's minutes up forward and by setting up for a turn around play with Smith holding a more offensive wide position on the wing, with less hit up leading.

Again, the players are well drilled and understand the different scenarios, and can execute it all in moments.

Two different approaches, largely built by what the best option is with the personnel they have at their disposal. One is very heavy on in match adjustment, one is very heavy on maintaining a consistent system. Both great coaches.

 

[Bernie]

This. Dont plan on watching another second of footy until NAB Cup.

The flathead are on the chew.
I will be using soft plastics.

 

[Eddie from Elwood]

Anyone but Geelong......can't stand Brisvagas, but it'd be nice to know we lost the eventual Premier's.....but they won't win it!