Why do people think players can't improve? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Why do people think players can't improve?

The_General

It's not how they start, but how they finish
Staff member
May 4, 2004
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I've read a few comments this year about this player is a dud or that player is a dud.

For a senior player who's 24 or thereabouts, I can certainly understand that they aren't likely to get any better. But if a player is 21 or 22, is it not possible that they can work really hard on their game over the off season and come back actually better?

IF that's not a possibility, then how the hell is the club going to improve? You can't just expect a player to be pass or fail after 3 years and never change. You can't expect to draft 22 players that are all pass marks that need no development.
 
To be brutally honest, any player can improve regardless of their age. Doesn't matter whether you're 18, 28 or 38, you can always improve, be it your fitness, your attitude, your skill's, in other words you should never stop learning. If you're an AFL footballer drafted at 17, you've got one hell of a long way to go before you reach the top eg: Brownlow Medal or Grand Finalist.

Of course some players have more talent than other players, conversely those players with talent may just kick back and relax, whilst the players with the lesser talent have to do the hard yards. Look at Gary Ablett Jr, he's got all the talent in the world, he cruises through games, you've think you've got him on toast and within 2 minutes he has effectively taken the game away from you. With other players you can shut them out of the game, with Ablett or Chris Judd that is simply not possible.

Ben Cousins, Brownlow Medalist, Grand Final Winner, look at his work and training ethic on and off the field, a perfect example of working hard and if anything he probably works hardier today as he's gotten older to maintain as much competitive edge as possible. Ditto Matty Richardson.

Others have to work really really hard after they've been drafted to make it into the seconds and hopefully within a couple of years the AFL. Some don't of course play a AFL game at all in say the 4 years they've been given the opportunity to develop as a footballer.

I guess it all comes down to ones own personal motivation. You have to be motivated to go all the way, or you may just be motivated to go only part of the way, its an individuals choice. At the end of the day, regardless of how much coaching, how much work is done by a club on a particular player with diet, training tapes, weights and gym, running laps, skill's sessions, it still comes down to the player themselves as to just how much they will improve by. Of course its totally unrealistic to expect every AFL draftee to become all Chris Judd's, Richo's or Ben Cousin's, but there is nothing to stop them from playing at least 200 AFL games if they do the right thing and knuckle down, listen to what they are told, watch their senior players and how they go about, ask questions, do extra sessions etc etc.

Of course you may arrive at a club full of zeal and zest ready to rock and roll, only to find said club's older players with attitude issues, they don't train hard enough, the coaching staff are too soft, they'll only do what is absolutely bare minimum necessary to keep the coaches happy, they are sloppy on the field but they don't seem to care because they know that next week they'll get a game because there is nobody else to replace them on a regular basis. Sloppy clubs do not win Grand Finals, they might if they are lucky make the odd finals series but overall if they have a sloppy nature about themselves, then they are pushing the barrow up Mount Everest and not getting anywhere.

So if you were a smart young draft pick, you'd train the house down, make the most of your limited opportunities and when your initial contract is up take a gamble and go for the pre season draft in an attempt to get to a club that has a better attitude within, which is of course rather a pity because the initial club you were selected by is in the end the loser.
 
Over the last 10 years.....

For some reason first round draft picks just don't seem to improve at Richmond! Everywhere else they go onto be champions or at very least bloody good match winning players

Rookies do improve at Richmond - they go from being rookies to ok AFL footballers - not champions or bloody good match winning players - they become just good ok players.

Is there a message there?
 
I believe players such as Tambling , Schulz, Hughes & Edwards can improve with the right coach.
I dont believe they have been given a fair go, they have either been played out of position and are the 1st ones dropped when we lose. I will judge them only when we get our new coach.
 
btoz_01 said:
I believe players such as Tambling , Schulz, Hughes & Edwards can improve with the right coach.
I dont believe they have been given a fair go, they have either been played out of position or are the 1st ones dropped when we lose. I will judge them only when we get our new coach.

I reckon you are spot on BT!

Take Schulz who played a good second half of last year as a CHB. Whilst hardly Glen Jakovich he was decent.

Come 2009 - we do we play him - as a FF of course. He is never going to be a FF.

Same with Tambling - shows a bit off a back flank last year (best ever game against Brisbane with 30 possessions, plenty of them contested). So where do we put him - in a forward pocket.

I could go on!
 
The_General said:
But if a player is 21 or 22, is it not possible that they can work really hard on their game over the off season and come back actually better?

Of course they can General, Foley is one player that comes to mind. A perfect example of a player that worked hard in the gym and on the track a couple of seasons ago and was honoured for his hard work. I think desire and wanting to succeed is the driving force that makes us reach our goals in life, unfortunatley many of our players do not display these qualities. As seasoned supporters who have followed this game for decades, we tend to learn and have a good eye spotting mediocrity, whether it's laziness, a lack of skill, or lack the intestinal fortitude. I am a firm beleiver that a coach will make the difference and excel a player from one level to the next, but on some occasions a coach cannot turn *smile* into strawberry jam.
 
geoffryprettyboy said:
Of course they can General, Foley is one player that comes to mind. A perfect example of a player that worked hard in the gym and on the track a couple of seasons ago and was honoured for his hard work. I think desire and wanting to succeed is the driving force that makes us reach our goals in life, unfortunatley many of our players do not display these qualities. As seasoned supporters who have followed this game for decades, we tend to learn and have a good eye spotting mediocrity, whether it's laziness, a lack of skill, or lack the intestinal fortitude. I am a firm beleiver that a coach will make the difference and excel a player from one level to the next, but on some occasions a coach cannot turn sh!t into strawberry jam.

I went to training last week and a group of the midfielders were practicing roving snap shots on goal. after everyone else finished, Foley was there on his own, continuing to practice. It's no accident Foley has improved. He has worked bloody hard at it and it has paid off. I wish a few others had the desire to improve like Foley does.
 
Maybe its because we gifted game to guys like Tambling and others, even Deledio, when they perhaos didn't deserve it.

Where as rookie listed players knew that they would have a lot of work ahead of them to get to the top.
 
skiptomystu said:
Maybe its because we gifted game to guys like Tambling and others, even Deledio, when they perhaos didn't deserve it.

It's an interesting dilemma that isnt it Skip?

One man's gifting of games is another man's giving of opportunities. Would gifting Connors another game this week be the right thing to do, or does he have to re-earn his spot because he played ordinary.

There is no magic wand or definative coaching strat, there are just shades of grey - decisions....rightly or wrongly.

GENERAL - I agree. Players, with the right motivation can improve right through the ages. Garry Ablett Snr and Matthew Richardson either did get better with added years (passed 23-24) or have got better IMHO. This holier than though, pius-like opinionated judgement that many of us are guilty of from time to time is unhelpful and at times thoughtless and disrespectful. By all means attack the deeds of the man, but not the man alone.

Imagine this site when or if Pettifer gets another game 8) ;D
 
when you don't have it you don't have it.

The problem is that we too often persist with unskillful, football stupid types who won't improve regardless of the number of games played.
 
I still don't think our players are as skill deficient as many believe. It's the situation we put ourselves in where nearly every disposal is under pressure and to someone who is either flat footed, under pressure themselves, or in a position where the players don't expect them to be.

Given a game plan that can work to our strengths, I'll reckon they'll do well. We've seen plenty of examples where when the team is on a role and winning, our skills do improve.

It's a confidence thing.
 
Harry said:
when you don't have it you don't have it.
The problem is that we too often persist with unskillful, football stupid types who won't improve regardless of the number of games played.
Sort of right, they all improve, but it depends on where they improve.
Example: Daniel Jackson. Jackson has improved his ability to get to contests and to get uncontested balls by increasing his fitness substantially. You see him getting more possessions late in quarters (in non-dangerous positions) when the sting is out because of his superior running ability.
But due his lack of football IQ he still gives away a lot if useless free kicks, gets slaughtered in close in the middle, and continually gets "tricked" or "outsmarted" by natural midfielders all day long.

Yes, technically Daniel Jackson has improved, but it is not in an area that helps us win matches. Jackson, like Tivendale will go back to the VFL and absolutely carve it up and then come back to the seniors and again get whipped in close contested possessions and 1-on-1 contests. It's a vicious cycle that we seem to get stuck in. The people who label him a DUD are simply saying that they do not value these areas where he has improved because they don't make a difference to the result of a game.


The astounding thing is Wallace actually claims that he brings people up and down becuase they perform in VFL and then fail in AFL. However, it appears he does not recognise how the skill and speed attributes of the different levels effect the ability for players to have success.
 
BBC said:
I reckon you are spot on BT!

Take Schulz who played a good second half of last year as a CHB. Whilst hardly Glen Jakovich he was decent.

Come 2009 - we do we play him - as a FF of course. He is never going to be a FF.

Same with Tambling - shows a bit off a back flank last year (best ever game against Brisbane with 30 possessions, plenty of them contested). So where do we put him - in a forward pocket.

I could go on!
Name one player Schulz shut down at CHB. I watched games he played there and while he looked better than he does up forward, for the life of my I could never work out who he was standing.