Will Hardwick stubbornness win us or lose us a premiership?/Hardwick [Merged]

[lamb22]

Fair enough Lamby, your personal experience gives you a lot more credibility on this subject than some. I've taken a bit of interest in the subject due to being involved in an associated industry and no doubt the current research would suggest more stability after a 4 year period using LARS than a traditional reco.

However, although not usually a Larkins fan, I think the following article is a very good summary of the current concerns amongst the medical community;

http://www.drpeterlarkins.com/2012/03/lars-ligament-surgery-why-all-the-fuss/

In particular the late reference to the subsequent difficulty in revising a LARS surgery with a traditional version is a significant concern with a young player like Menzel. In terms of other AFL players who have had the surgery, nowhere near enough for a decent sample size in order to judge the long term success of the surgery in our sport.

But you surely cannot suggest it isn't valid for the recruiters to be concerned about a major surgery that has to date only been performed on 6 AFL players with about a 50% success rate?

Thanks Linus. I am also aware of that article and Larkin's views who is actually pro LARS if the circumstances fit.

It is true that they put in humungus bolts in the knee to attach the ligament. Malcevski though had a LARS upon LARS and during the GF I mentioned to my mates as he swung two impossible goals through that he would have missed without the turbo super strong LARS slinging that leg around riciculous corners.

The one main concern we weighed up is the one Feller raises and its the possible inflammation of the knee as the synthetic fibres (possibly) degrade. This is not however a given and as this latest fibre is relatively new it will be a while before it all plays out. That's one of the reasons Feller is cautious as is his right (it also a consideration that he is possibly the leading 'conventional ACL' surgeon in the country).

Anyway it my opinion and its only a lay opinion based on some research is that if the Menzels do have a genetic issue with knee or knee ligaments, a LARS is likely to make the knee stronger at least in the short term.

My son has had numerous jarring and crunching of his knee and once said he was almost certain the knee would pop but it held firm and he believed the LARS ligament and those humungous bolts helped him.

 

[linuscambridge]

Thanks Linus. I am also aware of that article and Larkin's views who is actually pro LARS if the circumstances fit.

It is true that they put in humungus bolts in the knee to attach the ligament. Malcevski though had a LARS upon LARS and during the GF I mentioned to my mates as he swung two impossible goals through that he would have missed without the turbo super strong LARS slinging that leg around riciculous corners.

The one main concern we weighed up is the one Feller raises and its the possible inflammation of the knee as the synthetic fibres (possibly) degrade. This is not however a given and as this latest fibre is relatively new it will be a while before it all plays out. That's one of the reasons Feller is cautious as is his right (it also a consideration that he is possibly the leading 'conventional ACL' surgeon in the country).

Anyway it my opinion and its only a lay opinion based on some research is that if the Menzels do have a genetic issue with knee or knee ligaments, a LARS is likely to make the knee stronger at least in the short term.

My son has had numerous jarring and crunching of his knee and once said he was almost certain the knee would pop but it held firm and he believed the LARS ligament and those humungous bolts helped him.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[TigerForce]

I see Lamby's point.

Lately I have done a stack of reading on the New England Patriots. And I am even more convinced then ever that the Patriots model is exactly what we are following. The model is all about having a internal rating system that not only your coach and GM believe in but your entire scouting department. A external player will be judged on his output at a lower level with the same metrics that those playing at Richmond in the AFL are judged upon. And simply saying that someone is a first round pick is not good enough for the Patriots, it's all about who he'll replace and how long before he can replace the incumbent. And the Patriots have had numerous people move on to other clubs and implment that same system with success (Atlanta & KC). It feels like we are doing the same.

For a team that's finished either 1st or 2nd in the last 12 years which includes winning 3 out of 5 Super Bowls within those years, I hope you're right SCOOP.

 

[nikolasmia]

Frank was a massive fan/wrap for Menzel. Massive.

are you sure about that leysy

Because i dont belive that to be the case

 

[tigergollywog]

I reckon a Vlas the Impaler V Pretzel comparison is a bit silly. Kind of like comparing peter daicos and kevin sheedy before they ever played. It doesnt really mean anything after long and distinguished careers let alone prior to playing their first game.

I am a punter and you lay your bets based on the odds, how likely a horse will win and how broke you are at the time.

Vlas the impaler is 4-1 to play 200 games I reckon. Menzel would be 10-1 to play 200. We backed the favourite, and considering our list is in a reasonable state of health (we aint broke), I think our recruiting team did the right thing.

I can see where Dimma is going = tough, versatile, durable, skillful. We have been screaming out for this recipe for 30 years. I think it will result in Chimp holding the cup up, more than once.

 

[lamb22]

I see where the tigers are going and agree with Scoop.

Its actually great we have a formula and its basically being physically competitive, being a strong minded character and a good decison maker under pressure and being a skilled deliverer.

That's why I was happy with Conca and Ellis as first round picks last two years.

But I agree that you need to temper that formula or at least re-examine it from time to time to make sure you dont miss the gold nuggets on the side of the road while you are focussed on the prize at the end of the road.

This goes for other off field stuff like the Cairns games and the decision to dig up Punt Road early (which in the end was a waste because of heavy rain which has put the ground resurfacing back 2 months anyway).

I am hoping Vlastuin will end up a solid and strong minded competitor and he wil get my support when he pulls to the jumper.

But you cant keep ignoring class forever.

 

[lamb22]

.

Vlas the impaler is 4-1 to play 200 games I reckon. Menzel would be 10-1 to play 200. We backed the favourite, and considering our list is in a reasonable state of health (we aint broke), I think our recruiting team did the right thing.

100 games from Menzel might bring you 2 or 3 flags ala Joel Selwood.

As a punter you should know about rrisk v reward. Overs and unders.

Chaffey was indestructable and got his 150 games plus. None of them ever got us closer to a flag.

Bottom line is that if Menzel stays sound he is a better player than Flossy and more value to his team.

 

[Barnzy]

Wonder what Lamb's response will be when Menzel does his knee again.

 

[tigergollywog]

time will tell. Want to bet in 5 years you wouldnt swap Vlas the Impaler for Pretzel?

 

[Disco08]

We are getting to the point where we need to start looking at those types. I am not anti Vlaustin but with Conca, Ellis and Vlaustin we need to be careful we don't get the same type year after year.

Aren't Cotchin, Martin and Deledio those types? Isn't it all about building quality support for those guys at this point?

 

[lamb22]

Wonder what Lamb's response will be when Menzel does his knee again.

I'll be gutted. That's why I am in so much pain. You want to see the super talented kids do well. If he does he'll be winning flags for the Scum and not us. If he gets injured its a tragedy for him and the game.

Can you feel my pain Bro!!

 

[spook]

So there you go who's to say we haven't deliberately erred on the cautious side.

You can't see it any other way, as did the clubs with the eight picks before us.

 

[Scoop]

Aren't Cotchin, Martin and Deledio those types? Isn't it all about building quality support for those guys at this point?

Indeed it is. But if you can add someone who can provide some more game winning ability but not on as regularly as those three you have to think twice.

Any truth to the whispers that Francis Jackson prefered Menzel and Jaksch but was over ruled by Dimma?

 

[Smoking Aces]

Indeed it is. But if you can add someone who can provide some more game winning ability but not on as regularly as those three you have to think twice.

Any truth to the whispers that Francis Jackson prefered Menzel and Jaksch but was over ruled by Dimma?

I call it B.S.

I know one club who had a pick before us concerned with Menzel knee. The medical report was not that favourable.

 

[Disco08]

Indeed it is. But if you can add someone who can provide some more game winning ability but not on as regularly as those three you have to think twice.

Any truth to the whispers that Francis Jackson prefered Menzel and Jaksch but was over ruled by Dimma?

Who's whispering that? Why would they make all these decisions as a committee only to let one man overide that process in this case?

It all depends on what chance they give Menzel of being a long term contributor. If it isn't that great then I can totally see wy they wanted to take the player who fills a need and projects as a very safe pick. We're aiming for finals and a tilt at the flag. We need to make premium picks count at this point.

 

[IrockZ]

Menzel is Nath Brown mk2. I think the knee thing has been a bit over exaggerated cause of his brothers 2 knee reco's, he wouldnt be the first player to do a knee before they were 18. Ty Vickery anyone?

Hope it doesnt it bite us. McDonough looks a very similar type to him though, but a class or 2 below.

 

[craig]

Spot on!
Bullsh!ted argument! They haven't even played a senior game. Menzel weighs 74kgs, my cat weighs more.
One tackle from Morris will having calling out for his Mama..

:hihi :hihi

Interesting thread this one.

 

[zippadeee]

:hihi :hihi

Interesting thread this one.

What could i write?
2 kids pick 9 & pick 10
Never played one game of senior AFL
And already people are comparing the 2.
Wait 2-3 years and that start an argument who's better.
Ones Nathan Brown and the other is compared to brad Sewell.
2 totally different players, in two totally different positions.
How can you compare them???
By the way I thought Edwards played really well in that front and square position al year.

 

[WesternTiger]

Menzel is Nath Brown mk2. I think the knee thing has been a bit over exaggerated cause of his brothers 2 knee reco's, he wouldnt be the first player to do a knee before they were 18. Ty Vickery anyone?

Hope it doesnt it bite us. McDonough looks a very similar type to him though, but a class or 2 below.

He has had LARS twice on one knee and once on the other hasn't he?

 

[zippadeee]

How more years has he got firstly??
What's his past for next season??

Because I think he has a decent side to play with now

No excuses, doesn't make finals has to go