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Drug Discussion (Split from Stokes Thread)

lamb22

Tiger Legend
Jan 29, 2005
10,846
376
Gee what a big brother society we live in. One gram of coke purchased for use by friends. Silly by Stokes as it is illegal but why not focus on real crimes rather than policing what people can or cant ingest.

Those with their beer guts overhanging the bar and ciggies dropping out the side of their mouths are probably the loudest in their moral outrage.

What a nanny state we live in! The quicker they legalise all recreational drugs for adults and make adults responsible for their own decisions the better! Would get rid of 80% of organised crime, burglaries and home invasions and taxes on them would boost the budget.

No lets demonise people for the drug choices they make (ie illicit rather than prescription, grog and tobacco)
 

HellsTiger

Tiger Matchwinner
Aug 15, 2004
826
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

lamb22 said:
.

Those with their beer guts overhanging the bar and ciggies dropping out the side of their mouths are probably the loudest in their moral outrage.

What a nanny state we live in! The quicker they legalise all recreational drugs for adults and make adults responsible for their own decisions the better! Would get rid of 80% of organised crime, burglaries and home invasions and taxes on them would boost the budget.

No lets demonise people for the drug choices they make (ie illicit rather than prescription, grog and tobacco)
Disagree, coroners would have 4 day weekends without alcohol. If we give the idiots out there more mind altering drugs, we would compound the problem. Though I am all for getting rid of outlaw MC gangs and organised crime. Adults every day, prove they cant take responsibility for themselves.
 

rickyvaughn99

Tiger Rookie
Nov 4, 2007
369
0
Melbourne
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

lamb22 said:
Gee what a big brother society we live in. One gram of coke purchased for use by friends. Silly by Stokes as it is illegal but why not focus on real crimes rather than policing what people can or cant ingest.

Those with their beer guts overhanging the bar and ciggies dropping out the side of their mouths are probably the loudest in their moral outrage.

What a nanny state we live in! The quicker they legalise all recreational drugs for adults and make adults responsible for their own decisions the better! Would get rid of 80% of organised crime, burglaries and home invasions and taxes on them would boost the budget.

No lets demonise people for the drug choices they make (ie illicit rather than prescription, grog and tobacco)
Legalising drugs would send the community into the depth of decay. Recreational drugs are illegal for a reason, they do irrepairable damage to the body and also destroy peoples ability to function on a normal mental and emotional level, not to mention that they are extremely dangerous and highly addictive.

Clearly there would still be the crime if drugs were legalised because all that would happen is that drug users habits and intakes would increase and the need for fast money would outweigh the need for rational thinking or reason. Highly addictive substances evoke irrational and unpredictable behaviour so you can legalise it all you want, all that will happen is that people tolerance will grow and the ability to fuel their habit will diminish.

If you can honestly say that society would be a better place if drugs were freely and easily accessible, you are not looking at the big picture.
 

lamb22

Tiger Legend
Jan 29, 2005
10,846
376
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

HellsTiger said:
Disagree, coroners would have 4 day weekends without alcohol. If we give the idiots out there more mind altering drugs, we would compound the problem. Though I am all for getting rid of outlaw MC gangs and organised crime. Adults every day, prove they cant take responsibility for themselves.
Interesting Hells T, my kids made the same argument. They said that it would make hard drugs seem normal. They seem to agree with you that left to their own devices too many adults would make the wrong decision.

Interesting civil liberties argument though that decsions concerning one's own welfare should be outsourced to government.

The corollary is that to protect diabetics from themselves we should jail them for taking sugar

To protect lactose intolerants jail them for drinking milk.

Perhaps education and a better social model going forward is the answer?
 

collector

Tiger Rookie
Feb 1, 2010
166
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rickyvaughn99 said:
Recreational drugs are illegal for a reason,

Because back in Colonial times, across the empire, alcohol was the drug of choice for the ruling class. Hence why it was and remains legal to consume yet other drugs were/are illegal.



Do not kid yourself for even a second, alcohol and ciggarettes (Yes I smoke) each on their own do more harm in this country than most other drugs combined.



If we want to wave our little "Won't someone think of the children" pom poms in regards to one set of drugs, then shouldn't we be consistent and call for the banning of all such drugs?


Either that, or accept that if adults are able to be trusted in their choices with regards to alcohol, they should be able to be trusted in their choices with other mind altering substances.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

lamb22 said:
Gee what a big brother society we live in. One gram of coke purchased for use by friends. Silly by Stokes as it is illegal but why not focus on real crimes rather than policing what people can or cant ingest.

.................

What a nanny state we live in! The quicker they legalise all recreational drugs for adults and make adults responsible for their own decisions the better! Would get rid of 80% of organised crime, burglaries and home invasions and taxes on them would boost the budget.
..............
Surely you're pulling our legs Lamby? Can't take that seriously at all.

Each time I drive past Yan Yean cemetary I face such mixed emotions as I say hi to my nephew. Sometimes I'm angry with him throwing his life away with drugs...others I have a crack at him about beating Collingwood. He was just a really nice kid who dabbled a bit here and there and got introduced to different drugs and depended on them more. When desperation kicks in and self respect is low it's a recipe for disaster.

If drugs were legal, therefore more readily accessible, they might start out as "recreational" but they will all too often lead to death.

It's not a nanny state at all. Society needs rules for the safety and protection of everyone.
 

IanG

Tiger Legend
Sep 27, 2004
15,953
113
Melbourne
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

lamb22 said:
Interesting Hells T, my kids made the same argument. They said that it would make hard drugs seem normal. They seem to agree with you that left to their own devices too many adults would make the wrong decision.

Interesting civil liberties argument though that decsions concerning one's own welfare should be outsourced to government.

The corollary is that to protect diabetics from themselves we should jail them for taking sugar

To protect lactose intolerants jail them for drinking milk.

Perhaps education and a better social model going forward is the answer?
I actually agree with you on a social level, prohibition doesn't work. However that still doesn't make it right for a footy player, a role model, to be involved in buying and distributing hard drugs even if it was only 1 gram.
 

collector

Tiger Rookie
Feb 1, 2010
166
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rosy23 said:
Surely you're pulling our legs Lamby? Can't take that seriously at all.

Each time I drive past Yan Yean cemetary I face such mixed emotions as I say hi to my nephew.
Whilst that story is sad for your family, a little perspective...

You may not know them personally, but how many people in the same cemetery would lie there due to alcohol related mishaps?
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

collector said:
Whilst that story is sad for your family, a little perspective...

You may not know them personally, but how many people in the same cemetery would lie there due to alcohol related mishaps?
I don't get what perspective you're referring to? Are you suggesting drugs should be legalised because alcohol kills?
 

lamb22

Tiger Legend
Jan 29, 2005
10,846
376
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rickyvaughn99 said:
Legalising drugs would send the community into the depth of decay. Recreational drugs are illegal for a reason, they do irrepairable damage to the body and also destroy peoples ability to function on a normal mental and emotional level, not to mention that they are extremely dangerous and highly addictive.

Clearly there would still be the crime if drugs were legalised because all that would happen is that drug users habits and intakes would increase and the need for fast money would outweigh the need for rational thinking or reason. Highly addictive substances evoke irrational and unpredictable behaviour so you can legalise it all you want, all that will happen is that people tolerance will grow and the ability to fuel their habit will diminish.

If you can honestly say that society would be a better place if drugs were freely and easily accessible, you are not looking at the big picture.
Your thesis is not quite correct. Drugs like marijuana were made illegal because Du pont didn't want competitors for it's nylon fibres, thereby demonising hemp.

Our grand parents probably took more narcotics than our kids as cocaine was a staple in cough and other medicines as late as the fifties.

Drugs such as hreoin as actually non toxic and do much less damage to your body than alchohol and cigarettes.

Drug use and more particularly destructive or addictive drug use is a symptom not a cause of society's ills. I'm sitll however waiting for some sensible argument to a parent who has a drug addicted child who needs help that demonising them and jailing them is the answer. If that's the answer then its our society that needs help. Other societies of course solve the drug problem (not) by killing the drug user, or more accurately randomly prosecuting the odd user for PR purposes while allowing an underground drug culture to be sustained and fostered by corruption.

I agree to the extent that children should be protected until such an age when they can make a considered decision. The age limit would be arbitrary but 18 or 21 seems reasonable to me.

Overseas evidence sees no evidence of increase in addiction rates when drugs are more freely available. It appeaar the addiction rate driver is the personality not the drug.

Legalising drugs would basically eliminate bikie crime gangs and most other organised crime on the one hand and drastically reduce the incidence of home invasions and the associated attacks on vulnerable people.

And like I said drug funds (in whole or in part through taxes) would go to the government who could use it for drug education or remedial or preventative care, rather than crims.

California is toying with the idea of legalising and taxing dope. Will be an interesting experiment!

Then again I might be wrong!
 

lamb22

Tiger Legend
Jan 29, 2005
10,846
376
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rosy23 said:
Surely you're pulling our legs Lamby? Can't take that seriously at all.

Each time I drive past Yan Yean cemetary I face such mixed emotions as I say hi to my nephew. Sometimes I'm angry with him throwing his life away with drugs...others I have a crack at him about beating Collingwood. He was just a really nice kid who dabbled a bit here and there and got introduced to different drugs and depended on them more. When desperation kicks in and self respect is low it's a recipe for disaster.

If drugs were legal, therefore more readily accessible, they might start out as "recreational" but they will all too often lead to death.

It's not a nanny state at all. Society needs rules for the safety and protection of everyone.
Rosy, my thoughts are with you re your nephew, but I make the point that what happened to your nephew happened in an environment where drugs were illegal.

I dont know the circumstances of what happened and I am cognisant that its very real and personal to you but perhaps if drugs were legal and the issue out in the open he could have been treated openly without recrimination for his problems and fear of jail rather than hiding the problem. I just dont know.

In Holland hard core addicts are being kept alive and in fact functioning in society with normal 9 -5 jobs because they are supplied their drug of choice by governement and then monitored. In a documentary I saw a lot of these people said they would have been dead had it not been for the intervention and bringing their problem out into the open.

It is a tricky and sensitive subject I know but I actually feel that there would be a lot less pain and a lot less suffering if we deal with the actual problem rather than pretending we can solve it by jailing people.

The very real drug problem we have now does not go away by pretending it doesn't exist.
 

collector

Tiger Rookie
Feb 1, 2010
166
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rosy23 said:
I don't get what perspective you're referring to? Are you suggesting drugs should be legalised because alcohol kills?
What I'm saying is, that for every sad story such s this one, there would be 10 more in relation to alcohol related issues.


Why should we make something illegal because some people make poor choices?


If that's the attitude we take, then shouldn't alcohol, ciggs, gambling etc all be banned to? If a minority making poor choices leads to something being made illegal, then why is it only some things are covered but others aren't? (Other than the historical issue of the white drugs of choice being legal, and the colored drugs of choice back then being illegal - Which has carried through to modern society as alcohol being acceptable, but other drugs not - I'm not so much referring to Australia there either, moreso British/American law, but we did generally take on specifically British society norms/laws)


FWIW I'm not actually for or against either extended bans into alcohol or making other drugs legal, but shouldn't there be some consistency? Particularly given the one that is legal does FAR more damage to people and our society then the illegal ones do.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

collector said:
Particularly given the one that is legal does FAR more damage to people and our society then the illegal ones do.
That's not a very convincing argument to legalise drugs. I'm sure if illegal drugs were made legal, and therefore far more accessible to the general population, they would do far more harm too.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

lamb22 said:
........but perhaps if drugs were legal and the issue out in the open he could have been treated openly without recrimination for his problems and fear of jail rather than hiding the problem. I just dont know.
Nah that's probably not applicable. Even his family were surprised he was using drugs when he died and I doubt the thought of jail either entered his head or was a likely outcome. I've known a lot of drug users and have never known one of them to be jailed for it. Does it actually happen?
 

collector

Tiger Rookie
Feb 1, 2010
166
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

rosy23 said:
That's not a very convincing argument to legalise drugs. I'm sure if illegal drugs were made legal, and therefore far more accessible to the general population, they would do far more harm too.
I'm not arguing we should neccesarily. I'm just stating that we should treat them in the same fashion as alcohol. A concept people consistently refuse to deal with. The only reason we see alcohol as acceptable and the others not, is that we indoctrinated by society from birth to believe that. Both are equally as harmful as each other, alcohol however does far more damage to society because a much greater % of our society partakes.


"illicit drugs" are also much more prevelant in society than what many seem to want to believe. Particularly amongst those under 30 - & the majority never suffer any ill effects from it.

Honest question, Stokes is looking at a possible custodial sentence for posessing a gram of cocaine... Now compare this to the stupid mole who damn near killed her baby down in Moe by deliberately feeding him alcohol and avoided a jail sentence due to "exceptional circumstances in that she had abstained since she was arrested" - How has society got this situation right?
 

collector

Tiger Rookie
Feb 1, 2010
166
0
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

& I don't mean anyone on here is accepting of that ridiculous sentence the woman got, but ask yourself, had a small amount of cocaine found it's way into the babies body, even accidentally, what would the result have been?
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

collector said:
Honest question, Stokes is looking at a possible custodial sentence for posessing a gram of cocaine... Now compare this to the stupid mole who damn near killed her baby down in Moe by deliberately feeding him alcohol and avoided a jail sentence due to "exceptional circumstances in that she had abstained since she was arrested" - How has society got this situation right?
I'm disgusted with the situation in regard to that little boy and how the Mum could breach behaviour restrictions and just get a tap on the wrist. I don't think it's a question of "society" getting it right. Both situations are wrong in different ways but unfortunately punishment is largely due to the mood in the courts on the day.

The fact with Stokes is he has broken the law. Whether we do or not, we're all obliged to abide by laws whether we consider them right or wrong. Drink driving, abuse, wearing stack hats, speeding, drugs, counterfeit or whatever. If we break them we should expect to suffer the consequences.

Society needs laws...or does it? Maybe we could try the conch system and see how things turn out. >:D
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,347
4
Re: Matthew Stokes charged re drugs

collector said:
... but ask yourself, had a small amount of cocaine found it's way into the babies body, even accidentally, what would the result have been?
None of us would know the answer to that. I can tell you it's not pretty to see or work with the drug affected babies born to women who used them while pregnant though. Poor little angels. :'(
 

duki

Tiger Rookie
Apr 11, 2009
159
0
i find it hard to compare the amount of alcohol related deaths to illicit drug related death, as alcohol is legal.
I cannot imagine the increase in drug related deaths/crime if it was legalized.

i guess while we are legalizing drugs we should also legalize the sex trade ;)
 

Tiger74

In deedily doodily neighbourino!
Jul 2, 2004
11,601
1
Melbourne
anyone who thinks legalizing illicit drugs will make them safer needs to read their history.

even though China prohibited opium use, their defeat in the Opium Wars effectively meant that they became openly available and the major export of the British to China.

So what I hear you say.

by 1900 one quarter of all chinese males were addicted to opium.  how can any society function properly, when one quarter of your male population has an addiction to a drug as powerful as opium?

also for those you celebrate the open use of drugs in the Netherlands, you may want to buy a paper.  Due to growing problems of drug use, the Dutch lawmakers are looking to wind back a number of the provisions they have made because the problems related to drug use are becoming more widesread.