Talking Politics

[mrposhman]

What’s the truth Jazzy? The AFR report last week or the article you quote?

They aren’t the same as one says don’t bow to political pressure and the other one puts on political pressure

He said both, and will say whatever he thinks he can to gain political points. He has no substance to him whatsoever.

A week seems like its a very long time in politics to change your mind so clearly in a week.

No doubt he was forced to change his mind and sell it, when it became so obvious that rates would be cut today.

 

[tigertime2]

Repetitive. Something you have asked me more than once and I have replied so there's no need to go over it again.

But what's also repetitive is when you are faced with facts and logic that you struggle to counter, when you know what you are sprouting is morally wrong and that despite claiming to oppose ethnc cleansing, you are sprouting it as a great solution, the best solution, you try to change the discussion by asking that same question over and over.

It's a very weak and gutless style of debate.

Nice try but this is a massive deflection.

I thought name calling was used by people who are losing the debate or are not capable of answering the question.

 

[mrposhman]

Nice try but this is a massive deflection.

I thought name calling was used by people who are losing the debate or are not capable of answering the question.

I'm sure Baloo can speak for himself but NOONE on here supports Hamas. Like most, we would have loved for Hamas to have been defeated from within, but much like other autocracies, they have to be defeated through democratic solutions with aid (see military help) to ensure those democratic solutions are enacted upon.

As much as Hamas (and Fatah to an extent) have ensured that free elections do not occur, Israel have as well. Its not actually in their interest to have Hamas defeated, as they then have zero ammunition to wage war.

I know a lot on here say the war started on 7th October, but in reality the war has been going on for far longer and 7th October 2023 was a battle within that war, waged by a terrorist organisation.

There is no validation for terrorist attacks, perhaps people might have supported the attack more if it wasn't cowardly and attacking either unarmed military installations or citizens homes, but thats what Hamas did and the attack needs to be called out, but it doesn't mean that Israel's actions both before 7th October and after should be ignored.

The one thing NONE of you guys that have clear support for Israel have answered, there have been numerous times its been asked, and every time has been ignored, but if this was an assault on Hamas as retaliation for 7th October like you all claim, why then do they continue to attack those Palestinians living in the West Bank? Why do they continue to kick people out of their homes, and take them for themselves?

This is why I have continually said its not black and white like Bengal constantly claims, its not, there are no good guys in this war. There are 2 bad guys, with a whole bunch of innocents on both sides caught in the middle.

 

[Baloo]

Nice try but this is a massive deflection.

I thought name calling was used by people who are losing the debate or are not capable of answering the question.

The deflection was your question that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Gutless and Weak isn't name calling, they are accurate adjectives of your attempt to dodge, weave and distract away from a line of questioning you are struggling with.

So, back to the question. How can you support Trumps plan for Gaza when it is the very definition of ethnic cleansing?

Then an ancillary question based on your previous answer, your use of "especially" when declaring your dislike of ethnic cleansing, does that mean you feel there are degrees on ethnic cleansing depending on who is being cleansed?

Ethnic Cleanse White South Africans - Bad! (Despite the fact there is no ethnic cleansing in South Africa.)
Ethnic Cleanse Brown Palestinians - Meh

 

[tigertime2]

I'm sure Baloo can speak for himself but NOONE on here supports Hamas. Like most, we would have loved for Hamas to have been defeated from within, but much like other autocracies, they have to be defeated through democratic solutions with aid (see military help) to ensure those democratic solutions are enacted upon.

As much as Hamas (and Fatah to an extent) have ensured that free elections do not occur, Israel have as well. Its not actually in their interest to have Hamas defeated, as they then have zero ammunition to wage war.

I know a lot on here say the war started on 7th October, but in reality the war has been going on for far longer and 7th October 2023 was a battle within that war, waged by a terrorist organisation.

There is no validation for terrorist attacks, perhaps people might have supported the attack more if it wasn't cowardly and attacking either unarmed military installations or citizens homes, but thats what Hamas did and the attack needs to be called out, but it doesn't mean that Israel's actions both before 7th October and after should be ignored.

The one thing NONE of you guys that have clear support for Israel have answered, there have been numerous times its been asked, and every time has been ignored, but if this was an assault on Hamas as retaliation for 7th October like you all claim, why then do they continue to attack those Palestinians living in the West Bank? Why do they continue to kick people out of their homes, and take them for themselves?

This is why I have continually said its not black and white like Bengal constantly claims, its not, there are no good guys in this war. There are 2 bad guys, with a whole bunch of innocents on both sides caught in the middle.

At least you have a balanced view.

For me personally and I understand this is not the best forum to discuss this topic. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all hold Abraham as the man of faith that all three religions stem from. The argument that Arabs in general make is that Israel has no claim to the land they occupy is not based on historical fact. Even their own writings acknowledge that Jacob, Abraham's grandson existed and lived in the land named after him Israel. (Jacob changed his name to Israel) now let's assume the bible is fake and not true. On the temple mount the second jewish temple was built in 560BC which predates Islam by over 1000 years.
The Dome of the Rock the 1st known structure built by Islam is built on top of the Second Temple. This is the challenge I have and why i support Israel. Because the claim from Arabic people that Israel have no claim to the land they now occupy is not based on factual historical evidence. The claim from Palestinians that they are the original inhabitants of Israel is false. The claim from Islamic people that Israel has no right to be in the land they occupy is false.
So in summary the writings of Three religions Islam, Judaism and Christianity acknowledge the historical significance of the land of Israel that is why i support Israel's right to be in the land they now occupy. The West Bank is a part of historical Israel. The United Nations created the West Bank and Gaza and thus the current mess we find today. The other issue which is now in play is the creation of the Ben Gurion Canal which is Trumps real goal.

 

[tigertime2]

The deflection was your question that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Gutless and Weak isn't name calling, they are accurate adjectives of your attempt to dodge, weave and distract away from a line of questioning you are struggling with.

So, back to the question. How can you support Trumps plan for Gaza when it is the very definition of ethnic cleansing?

Then an ancillary question based on your previous answer, your use of "especially" when declaring your dislike of ethnic cleansing, does that mean you feel there are degrees on ethnic cleansing depending on who is being cleansed?

Ethnic Cleanse White South Africans - Bad! (Despite the fact there is no ethnic cleansing in South Africa.)
Ethnic Cleanse Brown Palestinians - Meh

To remain on this site I have to show restraint. If I say exactly what i think I will be willowed. I have never backed down from a fight in my life. You name the time and the place and I will happily oblige.

 

[DavidSSS]

The deflection was your question that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. Gutless and Weak isn't name calling, they are accurate adjectives of your attempt to dodge, weave and distract away from a line of questioning you are struggling with.

So, back to the question. How can you support Trumps plan for Gaza when it is the very definition of ethnic cleansing?

Then an ancillary question based on your previous answer, your use of "especially" when declaring your dislike of ethnic cleansing, does that mean you feel there are degrees on ethnic cleansing depending on who is being cleansed?

Ethnic Cleanse White South Africans - Bad! (Despite the fact there is no ethnic cleansing in South Africa.)
Ethnic Cleanse Brown Palestinians - Meh

Come on, it is obvious. He doesn't want white South Africans ethnically cleansed because they are white.

Let's just take what he said above and change it to apply to South Africa:

He says that Israel has a right to exist because apparently the Jews were there first. Therefore, the late comers, in his claim that is the Palestinians, should be removed. Hmm, by that logic the White South Africans should be removed, after all, the blacks were there first.

The reality is that Israel was created on a land which was inhabited by the Palestinians. The Palestinians were thrown off their land in favour of Jews who moved in from elsewhere. Unlike in South Africa, the Jews had to migrate to Israel, the blacks never left South Africa. In 2003 29% of Israelis came from Israel, and presumably that included children of those who migrated earlier. There is no way you can maintain that, as at the establishment of Israel in 1948, most of the ancestors of the current Jewish population were inhabitants of what is now Israel.

I don't think there is any valid claim on Israel and the Occupied Territories from biblical times, that is just absurd. The Israelis have a claim on Israel because of the existence of their state since 1948, the Palestinians have a claim as the inhabitants of the land they were forcibly removed from. The only solution is to recognise both claims.

As for the terrorism question, if you are willing to go back to biblical times to justify the existence of Israel, then surely going back to early/mid 20th century is not going back too far. Before 1948 there were a number of Zionist terrorist groups, should that invalidate their claim to any part of Israel and the Occupied Territories?

DS

 

[Baloo]

To remain on this site I have to show restraint. If I say exactly what i think I will be willowed. I have never backed down from a fight in my life. You name the time and the place and I will happily oblige.

No one is asking you to fight, just answer the questions without deflecting. If you refuse to answer them, just say so, you'd get a lot more respect than when you continually try to derail the conversation with "Do you condone what Hamas did" ad nauseum. It's a gutless way to avoid a question you don't want to answer.

 

[Ian4]

So as Clive Palmer wasn't able to re-register UAP, they have decided to rebrand their political party name to "Trumpet of Patriots," I kid you not.

I’ll bet you $100 Clive Palmer asked Babet to choose a new name and that’s what he came up with.

 

[mrposhman]

So as Clive Palmer wasn't able to re-register UAP, they have decided to rebrand their political party name to "Trumpet of Patriots," I kid you not.

I’ll bet you $100 Clive Palmer asked Babet to choose a new name and that’s what he came up with.

He should have rebranded to Palmers Republicans and Trumpets, or as most of us would regard them PRATs

 

[Tigers of Old]

Trump should give China a couple of states if they ask for it. Maybe Alaska & Hawaii?
I'm sure the Americans who live there wont mind.

Trump takes aim at Ukraine over Russia war, dismisses peace talk concerns

The US president said he was "disappointed" to hear Ukraine complained about being excluded from talks with Russia, and suggested President Volodymyr Zelenskyy should have made a peace deal years ago.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Baloo]

Trump should give China a couple of states if they ask for it. Maybe Alaska & Hawaii?
I'm sure the Americans who live there wont mind.

Trump takes aim at Ukraine over Russia war, dismisses peace talk concerns

The US president said he was "disappointed" to hear Ukraine complained about being excluded from talks with Russia, and suggested President Volodymyr Zelenskyy should have made a peace deal years ago.

www.abc.net.au

Some of his comments are just unhinged

"I think I have the power to end this war, and I think it's going very well. But today I heard, 'Oh, well, we weren't invited.' Well, you've been there for three years," Trump told reporters at his Mar-a-Lago resort. "You should have never started it. You could have made a deal."
"I could have made a deal for Ukraine that would have given them almost all of the land, everything, almost all of the land, and no people would have been killed, and no city would have been demolished, and not one dome would have been knocked down. But they chose not to do it that way."
“When they want a seat at the table, you could say the people have to, wouldn’t the people of Ukraine have to say, like, ‘You know, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an election.’ That’s not a Russia thing. That’s something coming from me and coming from many other countries also,” Trump said.

That last one is especially good as one of Putin's tactics to refuse any sort of ceasefire discussion with Ukraine has been that he wants Ukrainians to have an election, claiming Zelensky only has 4% approval rating, a number Trump parroted in this latest presser. Zelensky has between 52% to 60%, depending on which poll you listen too.

 

[TigerForce]

Frump loves playing around with his toys....

 

[Legends of 2017]

Some of his comments are just unhinged

Only some?

“That last one is especially good as one of Putin's tactics to refuse any sort of ceasefire discussion with Ukraine has been that he wants Ukrainians to have an election, claiming Zelensky only has 4% approval rating, a number Trump parroted in this latest presser. Zelensky has between 52% to 60%, depending on which poll you listen too.”

Yes, but nothing like Putin’s 150% or whatever figure dubious figures from the previous 3-4 Russian elections were

 

[Sintiger]

Some of his comments are just unhinged

"I think I have the power to end this war, and I think it's going very well. But today I heard, 'Oh, well, we weren't invited.' Well, you've been there for three years," Trump told reporters at his Mar-a-Lago resort. "You should have never started it. You could have made a deal."
"I could have made a deal for Ukraine that would have given them almost all of the land, everything, almost all of the land, and no people would have been killed, and no city would have been demolished, and not one dome would have been knocked down. But they chose not to do it that way."
“When they want a seat at the table, you could say the people have to, wouldn’t the people of Ukraine have to say, like, ‘You know, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an election.’ That’s not a Russia thing. That’s something coming from me and coming from many other countries also,” Trump said.

That last one is especially good as one of Putin's tactics to refuse any sort of ceasefire discussion with Ukraine has been that he wants Ukrainians to have an election, claiming Zelensky only has 4% approval rating, a number Trump parroted in this latest presser. Zelensky has between 52% to 60%, depending on which poll you listen too.

My memory must be fading...I thought Russia invaded Ukraine ? Must have been mistaken.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Old mate Trumplestiltskin the great negotiator.
Happy to negotiate away a big slice of Ukraine to Russia to stop all the senseless killing. Rest of Europe better dig the big boy pants out of the wardrobe, Putinontheritz n his mates will keep nibbling away at various borders.

Then Trumplestiltskin will commence negotiations with China over Taiwan and other little areas of Chinese interest. All to avoid the senseless killings of a possible war. Rest of Asia also better be finding some spare big boy pants in a hurry, no doubt Grandpa Xi will quietly be moving all his military into little exclusion areas n taking control of whatever is good for China.

Lucky I'm old n don't really give a *smile*, but it won't be long before there's simply 3 powers left in the world Chinese controlled Asia. Russian controlled Europe. American controlled Canada n maybe a few table scraps. Whatever is left will simply be beholden to whatever mob manages to do some investment, development and bribing of officialdom.

 

[Brodders17]

My memory must be fading...I thought Russia invaded Ukraine ? Must have been mistaken.

No wonder Russia were so keen for Trump to win.

 

[larabee]

Yes, anytime now Dutton will be on Sky news frothing at the mouth demanding Albo get stronger on the growing hate against muslims in our community, Albo will come up with a new set of laws specifically aimed at tackling vulgar Islamophobia, various media outlets will be running this story front and centre on their web sites and channels, and our police will be fronting news conferences condemning these terrible atrocities.

Any time now.


Should be pretty soon




Anything?

well, Albo just mentioned this attack and says that “any attack on people on the basis of their faith or who they are is reprehensible”. which is true.


a week later and after been called out by Usman Khawaja on social media.


Dutton?

 

[Sintiger]

At least you have a balanced view.

For me personally and I understand this is not the best forum to discuss this topic. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all hold Abraham as the man of faith that all three religions stem from. The argument that Arabs in general make is that Israel has no claim to the land they occupy is not based on historical fact. Even their own writings acknowledge that Jacob, Abraham's grandson existed and lived in the land named after him Israel. (Jacob changed his name to Israel) now let's assume the bible is fake and not true. On the temple mount the second jewish temple was built in 560BC which predates Islam by over 1000 years.
The Dome of the Rock the 1st known structure built by Islam is built on top of the Second Temple. This is the challenge I have and why i support Israel. Because the claim from Arabic people that Israel have no claim to the land they now occupy is not based on factual historical evidence. The claim from Palestinians that they are the original inhabitants of Israel is false. The claim from Islamic people that Israel has no right to be in the land they occupy is false.
So in summary the writings of Three religions Islam, Judaism and Christianity acknowledge the historical significance of the land of Israel that is why i support Israel's right to be in the land they now occupy. The West Bank is a part of historical Israel. The United Nations created the West Bank and Gaza and thus the current mess we find today. The other issue which is now in play is the creation of the Ben Gurion Canal which is Trumps real goal.

If you want to go back to the original inhabitants it is the Canaanites. As I understand it both Israelites and Palestinian Arabs have descendancy from the Canaanites but the people most closely connected to them are Lebanese. Perhaps we should arrange to hand it all over the Lebanon?

But most of that history is interesting but not very practical unless we take that type of view everywhere and (for example) give Australia back to the indigeneous people, the USA back to the Indians etc etc. Is that something you favour?

The political organisation that represents the majority of Palestinians in Palestine today is Fatah, which runs the Palestinian authority who rule the West Bank where close to 60% of them live ( excluding the 300,000 who live in occupied East Jerusalem). They recognised Israel's right to exist about 30 years ago so the statement that Palestinians don't recognise Israel's right to exist is actually false.

The question is does Israel recognise Palestine's right to exist? The reality is that they have voted continuously against recognition of a Palestinian state at the UN and it has been vetoed by the US even when UN members voted for it.

It is all very well to make statements about Israel's right to be on the land they occupy ( which from what you intimated includes land they have annexed in the West Bank and perhaps the whole of the West Bank) but where would you have expected the Palestinians evicted from their homes in the 1948 Naqba to go and where do you expect the 5.5 million Palestinians now in Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem to go?

This whole idea of historical claims to land is incredibly fraught and completely impractical. If we go down that path descendants of colonialists would have a big problem, most of the borders of Africa would mean nothing, neither would the borders in the Middle east. There would be people like the kurds for instance who don't have a homeland and have massive claims to one. Rohingyas in Burma ,,,Let's throw the Chinese out of Singapore and Malaysia.

The fact is there was a Palestinian entity with millions of Palestinians living in it. Israel now exists, it is a reality, but denying the right for there to be a Palestinian entity where they have lived for generations based on some historical claim is not a just solution.

 

[Brodders17]

But most of that history is interesting but not very practical unless we take that type of view everywhere and (for example) give Australia back to the indigeneous people, the USA back to the Indians etc etc. Is that something you favour?

I am pretty sure TT2 has posted many times on here strongly in favour of native title, and was passionately in favour of a "yes" vote in recognition of the fact that all non-Indigenous Australians in Australia should actually leave, and a "yes" vote was the least we could do in thanks for not being forced to.