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Talking Politics
- Thread starter Legends of 2017
- Start date
KnightersRevenge said:
i.e. Tone was just trying to boost his reputation by shirt-fronting. New fad. Probably doesn't really give a rats arse about these 2 or the other 7 to come.
As for Chan and Sukumaran only 1 month short of serving 10 years, wasn't there some rule in Indonesian law stating that if they served 10 years, their sentences would be commuted to life and not face death penalty?
I think Brazil have recalled their Ambassador - which we won't do.
Nor will we cut off Aid money.
IMO there will be a groundswell of public sentiment resulting in Social Media calls to boycott Bali as a holiday destination.
tigertim said:
That was where Toned Abs grandstanded to the domestic political audience by publicly linking the tsunami aid package to the current situation and implied that we might not help out in future.
Anyone who knows anything about politics and business in Asia knows that threats, implied or explicit, inevitably lead to a hardening of the original position.
Matter of opinion I guess. I didnt see it as grandstanding (as the PM he's expect to be trying to save these 2 lives) at all and I certainly didnt see it as "threats", "insults" or "preaching". Brazil and Holland went a lot further in withdrawing their ambassadors. Even Shorten has said the government has handled this well.antman said:
The original decision is/was always going to stand. No other countries have swayed Joko in granting clemency, I dont think Abbotts comments changed the decision in any way.
Do you think Joko is grandstanding to his domestic audience?
Julia Bishop said Abbott's reminders were seen as threats in Indonesia. She had to do some patch up work. At the least Tony showed a distinct lack of tact. Donations and gifts aren't something to be used to try and hold someone to ransom or cash in on. I can understand how it could have perceived as an implied threat. It could have placed Joko in a position of seeming to back down if he changed tack based on what we've done in the past. Very sensitive and risky way to go about political business, especially when there are lives at stake.
I understand the Indons wanted to take Abbotts comments as a "threat", they just want to go ahead with the process and not be seen to bowing to Australia.
Even Chans and Sukumaans lawyers backed Abbotts comments:
Chan and Sukumaran's Indonesian lawyer Todung Mulya Lubis said Mr Abbott's point should be taken into consideration.
"Indonesia probably don't see this [tsunami relief support] as related to the matter of law enforcement, but I believe it has to be taken into consideration," Dr Lubis told 702 ABC Perth.
"And it will be taken into consideration by some of the government I believe. But it is something that Tony Abbott is right to say."
Anyway, I find it odd that people are up in arms about Abbotts "threatening" comment but no one is up in arms at Widodo for "threatening" to have 2 Australian citizens shot dead.
Even Chans and Sukumaans lawyers backed Abbotts comments:
Chan and Sukumaran's Indonesian lawyer Todung Mulya Lubis said Mr Abbott's point should be taken into consideration.
"Indonesia probably don't see this [tsunami relief support] as related to the matter of law enforcement, but I believe it has to be taken into consideration," Dr Lubis told 702 ABC Perth.
"And it will be taken into consideration by some of the government I believe. But it is something that Tony Abbott is right to say."
Anyway, I find it odd that people are up in arms about Abbotts "threatening" comment but no one is up in arms at Widodo for "threatening" to have 2 Australian citizens shot dead.
tigertim said:
Don't get me wrong - Tony and Julie are trying, but just not effectively. Joko Widodo is a disappointment as Indo Pres so far... despite an excellent record as a sensible, reformist and non-corrupt governor he's not passing with flying colours yet. Tackling the corrupt military and police systems in Indonesia is a big task and he hasn't progressed this far at all yet.
Tone's comments put him in a position though that it would be hard for him to grant clemency to Sukamaran and Chan without appearing weak to the domestic political audience, and for a new president that he can't do. Whether he would have ever granted clemency at all is unlikely.
rosy23 said:
No. Pretty sure I heard that quote from Abbott during the 3pm news on ABC radio.
yes.antman said:
anyone who has ever dealt with indonesians in business or with the Government and who has half a brain would know that the last thing you want to do is publicly push them into a position of backing down and losing face.
The only way to deal with these things is quietly and behind closed doors. In this case it probably wouldn't have made a difference but as soon as Tony made it look like it would be bowing to our pressure to back down it was all over.
As an aside, i noticed that the sole Indonesian in this round of executions was charged with selling marijuana. There can't be too many places where people can be executed for that .
tigertim said:
Just a lazy false dichotomy here tt. It isn't one or the other. Most posters here are arguing against the death penalty. Being "up in arms" means nothing. But nor does nationality. The state should not be in the business of killing people. That's it IMO.
The PM's comments were just Tony looking for a friendly audience. The Alan Jones, Ray Hadley devotees who love to spout nationalistic nonsense about flags and gods. He wasn't speaking to JokoWi. But he chose to do it at the wrong time and place, when it was sure to be heard in Indonesia just because it is a hot topic as the drug smugglers days are numbered. It was stupid and ham-fisted.