The Old Testament

[Djevv]

GEN 6

5 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

When God says “for it repenteth me that I have made them” is God expressing some kind of divine responsibility for the failure of man?
He has created a thing that has failed badly, again. The more I read the more I feel God is almost like a juvenile God still learning his craft, still working his way through things, floundering.

God creates heaven and angels with free will (fabulous) but fails to win full support
So God expels Satan after an attempted coup

God creates earth and the universe (fabulous) but fails to stop Satan from dwelling in his own garden, Eve & Adam reject God’s orders
So God expels Adam & Eve and dishes out all kinds of nasty punishments

In time everything goes wrong. No one will listen to him.
So God murders all life bar for Noah and his lot.


How can any God that has the power to create the universe and all that is good in it choose global holocaust over all other possible alternatives to right the world?

Children too young to sin, animals not capable of sin, innocents – all must die, except Noah and his crew.
How does one justify total global holocaust?

With all due respect is this not psychotic stuff?

1. God hates sin and can get violent when stamping it out. Eventually it cost Him his only Son!
2. God is not a murderer, He is a just judge, He is also the author and giver of life and decides when it begins and ends. Remember that the boat was huge and the people were warned before the flood came.

 

[evo]

Its a very, very simple idea, nature does not naturally create matter/energy

Sure it does. It must, it is here.

Nature creates everything. Nature IS everything.

QED.

and it is not eternal so how did it get here?

Nature has to be eternal.

Have a think about what you are proposing. You are saying there was a time when there was existence, but no things. ullhair

It is not only prima facie ridiculous, it is logically ridiculous.

Seems to me the only alternative is supernatural.

It is an unecessary complication. If you say the cause of nature is God, then you then have to explain God. But we both know in our hearts any God that could cause nature is not only unknowable, 'it' is ineffable. Even the staunchest of theists will --when push comes to shove-- admit God is ineffable, unknown, obscured.

So God is no explanation at all.

Instead of saying God is eternal; God is the cause of all things and so on, you can say nature is.

God is nature!

 

[Disco08]

2. God is not a murderer, He is a just judge, He is also the author and giver of life and decides when it begins and ends. Remember that the boat was huge and the people were warned before the flood came.

God killed all but a handful of people because he wasn't happy with the ways things turned out and He's not a murderer?

If I have a son and kill him because I'm not happy with the way he's turned out am I a murderer?

 

[Djevv]

Sure it does. It must, it is here.

Nature creates everything. Nature IS everything.

QED.
Nature has to be eternal.

More special pleading. Science demonstrates that this is not the case. These are very fundamental laws of nature.

Have a think about what you are proposing. You are saying there was a time when there was existence, but no things. ullhair

Actually that is NOT what I am saying. As I understand the Big Bang, everything including space-time began. So there was not even nature.

It is not only prima facie ridiculous, it is logically ridiculous.
It is an unecessary complication. If you say the cause of nature is God, then you then have to explain God. But we both know in our hearts any God that could cause nature is not only unknowable, 'it' is ineffable. Even the staunchest of theists will --when push comes to shove-- admit God is ineffable, unknown, obscured.

I think you can learn about the nature of the creator from the creation. You can also learn about Him if He chooses to reveal Himself. However in a sense you are correct, you can never fully comprehend God.

So God is no explanation at all.

Of course God is an explanation! In fact I think He is the only sufficient explanation. Just as a man is the only sufficient explanation for a car or a computer.

Instead of saying God is eternal; God is the cause of all things and so on, you can say nature is.

God is nature!

More non-scientific nonsense. Newtons Laws indicate that an effect cannot be its own cause.

 

[Djevv]

God killed all but a handful of people because he wasn't happy with the ways things turned out and He's not a murderer?

If I have a son and kill him because I'm not happy with the way he's turned out am I a murderer?

Yep, but you are not God who is the ultimate Judge and authority as well as the author and giver of life. The flood was a judgement. If you are talking about Jesus, Satan murdered Him, not God.

 

[Disco08]

I wasn't talking about Jesus.

Judgment or not, murder is murder if you want to apply classical definitions.

 

[glantone]

God is compassionate and He probably wanted to spare the parents the pain of losing both their sons.

That’s quite possible I guess. Geez, wonder how God broke the news to mum and dad.
Adam, Eve, …..um, it’s about those 2 sons of yours. Do you want to hear the good news or the bad news first?

All Sin is bad - all equally leads to death.

Yes, but only rejecting God’s love leads to hell, right? A murderer can always repent, and if his repentance is unquestioningly pure, devoid of intrigue God may take the murderer into heaven. But anyone who rejects God’s love outright is doomed regardless of how charitable that person may have been on earth.
So, in the eyes of God all sin may be bad but not equal, agreed?

The OT suited the harsh times in which it was written. Christians live according to the New Testament. But you learn a lot about the nature of God from the OT.

Do you every punish your child? Why? Remember society in those days was only one or two steps from barbarism and laws were typically harsh to keep order.

Guess so. I assume the 10 commandments were introduced later on as a global life style change so times must have been pretty wild and wooly in the early early days. Wonder what moral code God expected people to live under before introducing the commandments. Another divine planning oversight perhaps?

Are there any other documents that describe how people lived in those days or is the OT it?

 

[glantone]

1. God hates sin and can get violent when stamping it out. Eventually it cost Him his only Son!
2. God is not a murderer, He is a just judge, He is also the author and giver of life and decides when it begins and ends. Remember that the boat was huge and the people were warned before the flood came.

Hate and violence .... perfect traits of a perfect God, Djevv?

God later sacrificing his own son is small change given that in the great flood he not only sacrifices everyone else’s, but also almost all other forms of life on plant earth.

If God is the author of life and decides when it begins and ends then it only follows that he also decides how it ends. Now if that is the case, I’m not sure even I want to go strolling through those dark places in God's heart, not before another coffee and not so soon after that Carlton hiding anyway.

But that’s all by the by, my question was why would a God that has the power to create the universe and all that is good in it choose global holocaust over all other possible alternatives for a global detox?
Why not just punish the sinners? What more visibly just lesson could there be?

As creator of this world what level of self loathing must God have been experiencing as he watched himself destroying his own love, I wonder?

 

[evo]

More non-scientific nonsense. Newtons Laws indicate that an effect cannot be its own cause.

*sigh *, rightio then. Hopefully it has at least given others who read this thread a bit of food for thought.

The irony of theists appealing to science for proof of their God appears totally lost on you.

 

[Djevv]

Yes, but only rejecting God’s love leads to hell, right? A murderer can always repent, and if his repentance is unquestioningly pure, devoid of intrigue God may take the murderer into heaven. But anyone who rejects God’s love outright is doomed regardless of how charitable that person may have been on earth.
So, in the eyes of God all sin may be bad but not equal, agreed?

Yes all sin is not the same nor equally worthy of punishment. God will repay according to the gravity of the sin.

As for heaven only believers get in - if 'goodness' was the criteria - there would be no need for Jesus sacrifice. Check this parable: the invited guests were the Jews, the 'anyone' are Christians and the man without wedding clothes, was a 'good' person who never committed to Jesus.

Guess so. I assume the 10 commandments were introduced later on as a global life style change so times must have been pretty wild and wooly in the early early days. Wonder what moral code God expected people to live under before introducing the commandments. Another divine planning oversight perhaps?

Are there any other documents that describe how people lived in those days or is the OT it?

There is plenty of achaeology from the time of Abraham and before - and since the Rosetta stone - many ancient writings of these peoples has been translated. However the OT is probably the best source if you want to know the daily life of people from this time.

Prior to the Mosaic covenant people were governed by a patriarchy.

 

[Djevv]

Hate and violence .... perfect traits of a perfect God, Djevv?

God later sacrificing his own son is small change given that in the great flood he not only sacrifices everyone else’s, but also almost all other forms of life on plant earth.

If God is the author of life and decides when it begins and ends then it only follows that he also decides how it ends. Now if that is the case, I’m not sure even I want to go strolling through those dark places in God's heart, not before another coffee and not so soon after that Carlton hiding anyway.

But that’s all by the by, my question was why would a God that has the power to create the universe and all that is good in it choose global holocaust over all other possible alternatives for a global detox?
Why not just punish the sinners? What more visibly just lesson could there be?

As creator of this world what level of self loathing must God have been experiencing as he watched himself destroying his own love, I wonder?

God is not so different to us Tiger supporters. We love the club and the jumper and hate the player who sins against it. If some of us were the Head Coach the entire list would be in purgatory (Coburg) or Hell (off the list) after last Thursday's debacle :hihi.

 

[Djevv]

*sigh *, rightio then. Hopefully it has at least given others who read this thread a bit of food for thought.

The irony of theists appealing to science for proof of their God appears totally lost on you.

I find it ironic that someone who claims an interest in Philosophy and Science doesn't cope when a Theist gives something other than 'Faith' or personal experience as a reason to believe. :-\

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I find it ironic that someone who claims an interest in Philosophy and Science doesn't cope when a Theist gives something other than 'Faith' or personal experience as a reason to believe. :-\

Yet you only subscribe to the science that fits your worldview. You claim that a creator is a reasonable explanation for the universe from a scientific standpoint, however there is no evidence for such a creator outside of your 'Faith' and personal experience. You postulate something with no evidence and no predictive power. Science isn't afraid to say "We don't know" when the evidence is lacking. We have certain knowledge of the origins of the universe, but we don't know everything. Making up answers is not science.

You are also very specific about your creator God. You are clearly not a deist, but a theist that believes in the God of Christianity. Why that one? It feels right? Christianity makes very specific claims about the universe and events that have happened on this planet. Claims that are subject to the scrutiny of the scientific evidence and have come up wanting no matter how Christians wish to misrepresent that evidence.

Thus, your reason to believe has no more foundation in reality than David Berkowitz's belief that his dog was talking to him.

 

[evo]

I find it ironic that someone who claims an interest in Philosophy and Science doesn't cope when a Theist gives something other than 'Faith' or personal experience as a reason to believe. :-\

I don't 'cope' as you put it for a couple of reasons.

1. Because you apply scientific principles in a folk-science fashion--presumably after getting the idea from a creationist website.

The 2nd law applies to closed or isolated system rather than the totality of all that is. I suspect you know you are doing this being a science teacher yourself, but chose to ignore it.

wiki:

Complex System

It is occasionally claimed that the second law is incompatible with autonomous self-organisation, or even the coming into existence of complex systems. This is a common creationist argument against evolution.[18] The entry self-organisation explains how this claim is a misconception. In fact, as hot systems cool down in accordance with the second law, it is not unusual for them to undergo spontaneous symmetry breaking, i.e. for structure to spontaneously appear as the temperature drops below a critical threshold. Complex structures, such as Bénard cells, also spontaneously appear where there is a steady flow of energy from a high temperature input source to a low temperature external sink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

2. More importantly, in my opinion, is that you are using science to attempt to solve a metaphysical problem. But then dismissing any science that doesn't agree with your own metaphysics.

The cause(or lack thereof) of everything is not a problem that science is capable of solving. That is what the word metaphysical means--outside of science.

It can only be solved by logic/ reason, theology (gag), or not at all.




BTW: Not that it really matters given what I said above, but you did mention the first law earlier. It seems to me the first law of thermodynamics point to an eternal universe anyway.........


"Energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but it can neither be created nor destroyed."

 

[evo]

Just further on my point 2. This guys two recent videos I just stumbled upon explains what i'm talking about a little better than I can. He's a clever young fella, some great videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4rOulofWRE&feature=response_watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8peipW8Yp0&feature=related

 

[glantone]

Yes all sin is not the same nor equally worthy of punishment. God will repay according to the gravity of the sin.

And do you believe that rejecting God's love is the most terrible of sins? More terrible than any physical or emotional violation of a fellow human during our earthly existence?

As for heaven only believers get in - if 'goodness' was the criteria - there would be no need for Jesus sacrifice. Check this parable: the invited guests were the Jews, the 'anyone' are Christians and the man without wedding clothes, was a 'good' person who never committed to Jesus.

Thanks for the link, Djevv.
Guess heaven is God’s party so he can stop anyone he wants at the door but must he insist on absolutely everyone coming in the first place?
Why not just invite the musicians and the dancers that live for his merry tune and leave the bar flies to their drink where ever they be? We all have different tastes!

 

[glantone]

God is not so different to us Tiger supporters. We love the club and the jumper and hate the player who sins against it. If some of us were the Head Coach the entire list would be in purgatory (Coburg) or Hell (off the list) after last Thursday's debacle :hihi.

Well, yeah…, we would all like to strangle some of the Tiges at times but the truth is the sum total of their failures are only a failure to meet our expectations, projected points which they may not be capable of ever reaching. We wouldn't get psycho over it, would we.

With the flood we are talking about a global holocaust so I’ll ask again:
Hate and violence .... perfect traits of a perfect God, Djevv?

Why would a God that has the power to create the universe and all that is good in it choose global holocaust over all other possible alternatives for a global detox?
Why not just punish the sinners? What more visibly just lesson could there be?

I’m not trying to be difficult here, Djevv, but can you not see that there are obvious contradictions in maintaining the view that god is perfect, compassionate, a harsh but fair judge, in the light of some of the stories contained in the OT text?

By the way, this reminds me of something I’ve been meaning to ask: do you know if God actually states or implies that “he himself is perfect, flawless” anywhere in the OT text ?
Is it possible this "God is perfect" concept is born and nurtured in the text by the story tellers alone because thus far I haven't come across God saying it?

 

[glantone]

Oh, and this questioned got lost back there::
What on earth does this mean?

GEN 6

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[Djevv]

Well, yeah…, we would all like to strangle some of the Tiges at times but the truth is the sum total of their failures are only a failure to meet our expectations, projected points which they may not be capable of ever reaching. We wouldn't get psycho over it, would we.

With the flood we are talking about a global holocaust so I’ll ask again:
Hate and violence .... perfect traits of a perfect God, Djevv?

Why would a God that has the power to create the universe and all that is good in it choose global holocaust over all other possible alternatives for a global detox?
Why not just punish the sinners? What more visibly just lesson could there be?

I’m not trying to be difficult here, Djevv, but can you not see that there are obvious contradictions in maintaining the view that god is perfect, compassionate, a harsh but fair judge, in the light of some of the stories contained in the OT text?

By the way, this reminds me of something I’ve been meaning to ask: do you know if God actually states or implies that “he himself is perfect, flawless” anywhere in the OT text ?
Is it possible this "God is perfect" concept is born and nurtured in the text by the story tellers alone because thus far I haven't come across God saying it?

It's no different to a judge who sentences a criminal for a heinous crime. Does this reflect on the character of the judge? Even a judge who sentences a criminal to death is not regarded as a murderer. And yes God has emotions like we do.

God is perfect Matt 5:48: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Djevv]

Oh, and this questioned got lost back there::
What on earth does this mean?

GEN 6

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Actually I'm not sure on that one. Whatever was going on doesn't sound good.......................................