Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short

[agincourt]

Game. Set. Match.

Spook nails this in every aspect.

Luckily the club are of the exact opposite opinion of you armchair experts..!

"He had 22 disposals, including a game-high six rebound-50s, four rebound (SIC)-50s, 706 metres gained, and generated considerable drive for the team with his customary line-breaking run.
That impressive first-up-from-a-spell performance by Short underlined why he is a pivotal member of the Tigers’ line-up, and why the selectors were so keen to get him back in as soon as possible."

 

[agincourt]

Generous to say he set anything up. He kicked the ball long and his teammates made something of it. There's your score involvements - he kicked it in the vicinity of the blokes who made scores happen. Name me one goal he set up.

8.20 min mark of the second quarter. Gets the ball on the wing. Kicks it an easy 60m to Lynch......ball spills to the front of the pack and Bolton crumbs it for a goal.

You're welcome.

 

[jb03]

Becoming a great thread this one, fantastic duel(s).

 

[tigerlove]

Much better option than Ellis. What does Ellis give that Short can't? Both have the same limitations, average defensively, can't tackle. I like the idea of playing Short on a wing in the place of Ellis.

 

[Harry]

Much better option than Ellis. What does Ellis give that Short can't? Both have the same limitations, average defensively, can't tackle. I like the idea of playing Short on a wing in the place of Ellis.

Yepski

 

[spook]

Luckily the club are of the exact opposite opinion of you armchair experts..!

"He had 22 disposals, including a game-high six rebound-50s, four rebound (SIC)-50s, 706 metres gained, and generated considerable drive for the team with his customary line-breaking run.
That impressive first-up-from-a-spell performance by Short underlined why he is a pivotal member of the Tigers’ line-up, and why the selectors were so keen to get him back in as soon as possible."

We're armchair experts - what are you? Why are you so upset that I have a different opinion to you?

By the way, quoting Tony Greenberg? Really?

8.20 min mark of the second quarter. Gets the ball on the wing. Kicks it an easy 60m to Lynch......ball spills to the front of the pack and Bolton crumbs it for a goal.

You're welcome.

Ah, yes. We were standing just forward of the wing where he kicked it. Watch the lead-up. The Saints kick the ball inside their 50. Short's man goes to the contest, Short goes the opposite way. He leaves us a man down at the contest so he can get an easy kick if and when we win it - calculated gamble. Vlastuin wins it, handballs under pressure to Houli, who under pressure, punches it to Broad, who has a bit of time to handball to Prestia who chips to Lambert on the wing, who handballs to Short in space. Short was initially five metres from the Vlastuin contest, and ran away from it while five other Tigers worked the ball out to the wing. Zero defensive involvement in a contest inside our D50 that he was five metres from.

He receives the ball on the wing and bombs long to a pack of four Saints, Lynch and Chol. Lynch is behind and forced to spoil, it falls to Bolton and he goals. That is not what I would call setting up a goal. It certainly did not take any special skillset other than the ability to kick 55 metres. He ignored better, open options inboard (Martin was 10 metres clear at the attacking point of the centre square - Short either doesn't have the vision to spot him (my belief) or is so blinkered into kicking long at every opportunity he decides against giving our best player an uncontested mark and unimpeded run to the 50 for a free shot at goal.) He got lucky. It was a typical Short play - others did the hard work, he got on the end of it, kicked it as long as he could and hoped for the best.

But that's only my armchair analysis, initially made while watching less than 50 metres away from him, confirmed watching the replay just now.

 

[spook]

You really don't like him do you?

I agree he's not a great one on one defender. But his role is an attacking one.

Richmond is a team that has players like Jason Castagna. A forward with a primarily defensive role. His job is to disrupt, and it's a bonus if he kicks a goal.

We also have Jayden Short. A defender with a primarily attacking role. His job is to advance where the contest happens, and it's a bonus if he manages to shut down an opponent.

Shorty also had a poor game by foot, and is normally much better. At his best he hits targets like Dusty, scything diagonals to advantage that break open play.

And it's a bit much to suggest he should be replaced by an injured zero gamer who wasn't even on the list a month ago, and is still a month away from even playing a VFL game.

I really don't like him, as a footballer, no. He reminds of the joke what do you call someone who hangs out with musicians - a drummer. Jayden Short has lots of friends who play football, and he runs around on the park while they do, and occasionally they give him a kick.

I disagree with your contentions. For a start, Castagna has kicked more goals than any of our other smalls. I disagree Short is normally much better by foot. I strongly disagree he hits scything diagonals to advantage that break open play. When? He kicks long and high down the line most of the time.

Pickett will surprise you, but take him out of it. We are likely to bring in a tall defender for finals - Rance, Balta or Garth. So someone goes out. Even if Stack doesn't move back to defence, Short is the first to go.

Ellis will go too, but Short is not the man to replace him on the wing. Again, imagine him on Brad Hill, or Sidebottom. Massacre.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Ah, yes. We were standing just forward of the wing where he kicked it. Watch the lead-up. The Saints kick the ball inside their 50. Short's man goes to the contest, Short goes the opposite way. He leaves us a man down at the contest so he can get an easy kick if and when we win it - calculated gamble.

Playing footy is all about calculated gambling. Just gotta calculate right.

That is not what I would call setting up a goal. It certainly did not take any special skillset other than the ability to kick 55 metres.

Kicking 55 accurately off both feet off one step under pressure? Not a lot of players who can do that.

He ignored better, open options inboard (Martin was 10 metres clear at the attacking point of the centre square - Short either doesn't have the vision to spot him (my belief) or is so blinkered into kicking long at every opportunity he decides against giving our best player an uncontested mark and unimpeded run to the 50 for a free shot at goal.) He got lucky.

Hmmm. Seems to get lucky a lot.

It's interesting, I see he frustrates you as a player. Probably for similar reasons Houli has always frustrated me. I see Shorty as a very similar player defensively, but a better and more creative user by hand and foot.

I do totally get the criticism though. Probably where a lot of this disagreement stems from is where people prefer to take their risks. I'd rather a player risk a defensive blunder to make an attacking play, than butcher an attacking opportunity to make a defensive play. But I'm probably glad our team had both types.

 

[spook]

Playing footy is all about calculated gambling. Just gotta calculate right.

If you always calculate that you should run away from the contest, that's called cheating.

Kicking 55 accurately off both feet off one step under pressure? Not a lot of players who can do that.

It was off several steps, and his kicking often goes to *smile* under pressure, but ok. A quicker player in that position would have gained an extra 10 metres before kicking.

Hmmm. Seems to get lucky a lot.

Does he? He had six goals assists last year. Six. Opponents mark his kicks more than teammates do.

It's interesting, I see he frustrates you as a player. Probably for similar reasons Houli has always frustrated me. I see Shorty as a very similar player defensively, but a better and more creative user by hand and foot.

Houli is a much better user by hand, far better in the air and the contest, and breaks a line (Short overlaps). It's an insult to Houli.

I do totally get the criticism though. Probably where a lot of this disagreement stems from is where people prefer to take their risks. I'd rather a player risk a defensive blunder to make an attacking play, than butcher an attacking opportunity to make a defensive play. But I'm probably glad our team had both types.

Sure, you have to take risks, but you have to know your teammates have your back when you do. Short knows his teammates have his, they can't say the same for him. And there's risks, and then there's risks. Shane Edwards will risk looking stupid with an outrageous play that opens up the corridor. Short risks leaving his man free inside 50 in the hope of getting an uncontested kick wide on the wing that he can bomb inside 50 and hope someone can turn into something.

I don't think his offensive impact offsets his defensive liability. That's what it boils down to.

 

[Coburgtiger]

I really don't like him, as a footballer, no. He reminds of the joke what do you call someone who hangs out with musicians - a drummer. Jayden Short has lots of friends who play football, and he runs around on the park while they do, and occasionally they give him a kick.

I disagree with your contentions. For a start, Castagna has kicked more goals than any of our other smalls. I disagree Short is normally much better by foot. I strongly disagree he hits scything diagonals to advantage that break open play. When? He kicks long and high down the line most of the time.

Pickett will surprise you, but take him out of it. We are likely to bring in a tall defender for finals - Rance, Balta or Garth. So someone goes out. Even if Stack doesn't move back to defence, Short is the first to go.

Ellis will go too, but Short is not the man to replace him on the wing. Again, imagine him on Brad Hill, or Sidebottom. Massacre.

He has kicked long and down the line a bit this year (which I'd wager is the instruction). But he's played four games with a half season interruption in it.

Last year, the long distance pinpoint, weighted passes to advantage were a huge part of our ability to hurt teams on the rebound. Something we've struggled with this year, badly.

Also, I'm super looking forward to Pickett. Just not sure what the purpose is im getting all hot and bothered about him not taking Shorts place when he hasn't ever and can't even.

And I'd rather imagine Brad Hill trying to shut down him.

 

[spook]

He has kicked long and down the line a bit this year (which I'd wager is the instruction). But he's played four games with a half season interruption in it.

Last year, the long distance pinpoint, weighted passes to advantage were a huge part of our ability to hurt teams on the rebound. Something we've struggled with this year, badly.

Also, I'm super looking forward to Pickett. Just not sure what the purpose is im getting all hot and bothered about him not taking Shorts place when he hasn't ever and can't even.

And I'd rather imagine Brad Hill trying to shut down him.

Last year, the long distance pinpoint, weighted passes to advantage dried up in the second half of the year. All he did was bomb long - that's part of the reason I turned on him around that time.

Pickett can take his place. For sure. And Brad Hill would knock Short off the ball, run him off his legs and have him calling for oxygen by quarter time.

Anyhoo, cheers for being able to disagree civilly and rationally.

 

[Coburgtiger]

If you always calculate that you should run away from the contest, that's called cheating.


It was off several steps, and his kicking often goes to **** under pressure, but ok. A quicker player in that position would have gained an extra 10 metres before kicking.


Does he? He had six goals assists last year. Six. Opponents mark his kicks more than teammates do.


Houli is a much better user by hand, far better in the air and the contest, and breaks a line (Short overlaps). It's an insult to Houli.


Sure, you have to take risks, but you have to know your teammates have your back when you do. Short knows his teammates have his, they can't say the same for him. And there's risks, and then there's risks. Shane Edwards will risk looking stupid with an outrageous play that opens up the corridor. Short risks leaving his man free inside 50 in the hope of getting an uncontested kick wide on the wing that he can bomb inside 50 and hope someone can turn into something.

I don't think his offensive impact offsets his defensive liability. That's what it boils down to.

I reckon you're getting a little away from reality there. I doubt a coach (especially Dimma) is going to pick a player whenever he's fit, even straight back in after an extended layoff, if none of his team mates feel he has their back.

There are also quite clearly team instructions for him to come off his man the way he does. He is being asked to do that, and his team mates are looking for him. It's more or less a set play.

And it's a little disingenuous to look at goal assists (the last disposal before a goal) for a backline player. He kicks long, but not that long. BTW, in 2018 Houli also had 6 goal assists. And he only kicked 3 goals, while Shorty kicked 9. But those are pretty silly metrics for their positions.

 

[spook]

I reckon you're getting a little away from reality there. I doubt a coach (especially Dimma) is going to pick a player whenever he's fit, even straight back in after an extended layoff, if none of his team mates feel he has their back.

There are also quite clearly team instructions for him to come off his man the way he does. He is being asked to do that, and his team mates are looking for him. It's more or less a set play.

And it's a little disingenuous to look at goal assists (the last disposal before a goal) for a backline player. He kicks long, but not that long. BTW, in 2018 Houli also had 6 goal assists. And he only kicked 3 goals, while Shorty kicked 9. But those are pretty silly metrics for their positions.

Short played 24 games, Houli 15. Short had 81 inside 50s, Houli 51. 81 inside 50s, 6 goal assists. Elite ball use?

Dimma's been wrong before. And players excuse their mates a multitude of sins, even accept them. Short is a very popular fellow.

 

[Mr Brightside]

I’m a rare fence sitter with Short, It’s not hard to see the weaknesses and not hard to see the strengths for me, in saying that I don’t mind him in the 22 , ads more run to the back half, which helps out Houli and Edwards or Stack if they play there. Like others I’d rather see him acrosss half back more then in deep defence , at this point I have him in the 22

 

[Coburgtiger]

Last year, the long distance pinpoint, weighted passes to advantage dried up in the second half of the year. All he did was bomb long - that's part of the reason I turned on him around that time.

Pickett can take his place. For sure. And Brad Hill would knock Short off the ball, run him off his legs and have him calling for oxygen by quarter time.

Anyhoo, cheers for being able to disagree civilly and rationally.

No worries.

I’m a rare fence sitter with Short, It’s not hard to see the weaknesses and not hard to see the strengths for me, in saying that I don’t mind him in the 22 , ads more run to the back half, which helps out Houli and Edwards or Stack if they play there. Like others I’d rather see him acrosss half back more then in deep defence , at this point I have him in the 22

I'm probably in a similar position, particularly when his form is a little scratchy.

But I do love the way he kicks the ball. I guess I watch footy as a bit of a neutral at times and enjoy well executed skills.

 

[Tenacious]

Interesting debate and enjoyable reading
Good arguments on both sides
Not sure I’ve reached a conclusion
It’s essential that attacking backmen like Short and Bachar use the ball well when they take the chance to leave their man and run forward
It’s magnificent to see a 55m kick from the wing hit a target up 30-40 metres out
If they’re off their games - like Bachar was at times on Sunday - it ain’t a good look and can gift goals the other way

 

[tigerman]

I'm a fan of Shorty, his strength is his kicking. Castagna's strength is his pace/pressure, Ellis and McIntosh's strengths is their running. The players are coached to play to a team process based game. I do get that they can be polarising.
Last year when we were playing a 7 man defence, Shorty didn't really have to pick up a man, his job was to be in position to receive the ball and clear the area. Shorty has been playing the way the coaches want him to play, and has done it very well.

That all worked well last year until the Dogs and the Pies didn't let us have the spare man.
With the 666 the pressure is going to be on Shorty. That, along with Houli's age is probably why we recruited Pickett.

 

[Rabbia]

Spook makes some fair (and astute) points but in the end I have to agree with Agincourt and Coburg in the washup.

Leaving aside the details, I'd say the club clearly values Short quite a bit - Richo's statements over time for example indicate this.

As does the fact they put him straight back in, after so long a break.

I expect he'll be staying in, whatever we think.

 

[zippadeee]

0 zero tackles. Great defender

 

[Brodders17]

Becoming a great thread this one, fantastic duel(s).

Reminds me of the McGun thread back in the day.