Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Welcome to Richmond - Jayden Short

Luckily the club are of the exact opposite opinion of you armchair experts..!

"He had 22 disposals, including a game-high six rebound-50s, four rebound (SIC)-50s, 706 metres gained, and generated considerable drive for the team with his customary line-breaking run.
That impressive first-up-from-a-spell performance by Short underlined why he is a pivotal member of the Tigers’ line-up, and why the selectors were so keen to get him back in as soon as possible."
We are all arm chair experts. But anyway that metres gained stat is flawed. The true reflection of metres gained should be measured by its effectiveness. How many times did he kick it to a 50-50 contest resulting in a turn over?
I was at the game and Short turned it over twice in as many minutes. Metres gained probably about 50m however effectiveness - nil. Going at 68% efficiency says it all.
 
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I'm a fan of Shorty, his strength is his kicking. Castagna's strength is his pace/pressure, Ellis and McIntosh's strengths is their running. The players are coached to play to a team process based game. I do get that they can be polarising.
Last year when we were playing a 7 man defence, Shorty didn't really have to pick up a man, his job was to be in position to receive the ball and clear the area. Shorty has been playing the way the coaches want him to play, and has done it very well.

That all worked well last year until the Dogs and the Pies didn't let us have the spare man.
With the 666 the pressure is going to be on Shorty. That, along with Houli's age is probably why we recruited Pickett.
However at the end of the day you still need to be accountable for a man. Playing loose man is great but the good teams won’t give you that luxury. And when they apply the heat, Short is a major liability defensively.
 
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However at the end of the day you still need to be accountable for a man. Playing loose man is great but the good teams won’t give you that luxury. And when they apply the heat, Short is a major liability defensively.
Yes i agree, but last season he didn't have to pick up a man because we were playing a 7 man defence. His job was to be there to be given the ball and clear the area.
As i said he got found out last year when the Dogs and the Pies didn't allow us to have the spare man. And as i said, the 666 is going to really test him
 
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'Tis a very good argument. Spook makes some good points. I am a Short fan but he does have blindspots and will kick long on many occasions instead of hitting a free man. However the reason I like him is that he is a 'real' elite kick (on both sides).

He kicks a heavy ball and carries an extra 5 to 10 metres over most players and he is direct in his ball movement and the ball flies through the air quickly, usually takes his 15 metes so he is a good 70 metre possession player.

Also he does get lucky a lot as Coburg says and that's a nice attribute to have.

Just the first half

11.40 to go Wing long 55 m inside 50. Prestia crumb - miss

9.40 Under pressure on wing 50 metre kick on left foot- inside 50 contest - Cotchin free - miss

3.11 H/B 60 metre kick to Martin with an opponent behind him. Hits him on the nipple. Martin I50 to Chol - goal

2nd Qtr

8.20 The 60 metre to Lynch where Shai goals. Lynch just gets to the ball in time. If the kick is 50 or 55 easy Saint mark.

2.43 Short in marking contest first hands. Short wins first possession handball Martin - chain of handballs Ellis Lambert Castagna to Stacky - Goal.

I love those sort of lucky players.

I reckon Jack loves him too, because the extra metres he gets often leads to the easy/ier (contested) mark over the back.

Also if Shorty is balanced running at goal within 55 metres almost a mark it down.

Having said that kicking and decision making mostly scratchy in second half. I think he does has a hand in some more scores but AFL player rating rated him our worst player on the day. Overall though he constantly rates higher than Houli and BEllis.

Any hoo it will be interesting to see how it plays out. another Stacky would be great but I think we really missed Short and we are more likely to top 100 points if he plays
 
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We are all arm chair experts. But anyway that metres gained stat is flawed. The true reflection of metres gained should be measured by its effectiveness. How many times did he kick it to a 50-50 contest resulting in a turn over?

Absolutely agree. Posters should apply that analysis to Bachar in particular.
 
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watchin the replay. to Q time, a bunch of shockers and one ripper kick to Dusty. I understand the theory with shorty but just doesnt work in practice AFAIC. Your silky finishing stars are excused from tackling, in theory, he aint a a star. If he hits long low passes, all good, but doesn't do it enough. Finally, our whole vibe, brand, whatever you want to call it is crack in, team defence, tough tackling, one on one holding your own at least. If you aren't all in on that, you have to be very very good in other areas, read Bachar. Thats why I'm down on shorty, and to a lesser extent Brando.
 
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I watched the replay and documented every Short involvement (or notable non-involvement).

(Time codes are time remaining in each quarter.)

1st quarter

13.02 receives handball from Vlastuin. Runs 10 metres and under no pressure kicks the ball over Ellis’ head and out of bounds. This is the kind of play that irks me when people bring up his disposal numbers. Astbury had intercept-marked and switched to Vlastuin, who was 25 metres clear of anyone but Short, who ran past for the hand-off. Vlastuin didn’t need to give it to him, he could have played on and kicked it to Ellis himself. Yeah, everyone does it, but you can see why in my view it renders stats meaningless.

12.25 Picks up a loose ball deep in defence and throws it on the boot. Tumble punt lands outside 50, neither composed nor elite use. Lynch beats Carlisle to the ball, is tackled, wins free.

11.53 Receives short pass from Vlastuin – from centre square to wing (inside to out – overlap, not line-break). Uncontested chest mark, plays on, kicks high and long to Lynch vs Carlisle and Marshall. Marshall drops mark, Prestia soccers out on the full.

9.45 Ball on our forward 50, our press is up. Edwards gathers loose ball 70 from goal, spreads a wide handball for Short’s overlap. Confronted by an opponent, Short hooks a very high left-footer 40 metres, on top of Cotchin’s head. Ball spills, Rioli poor handball, Dunstan dives on the footy, Cotch wins free for holding the ball. Shot at goal is rushed through – score involvement for Short?

8.11 Astbury intercept marks on the wing, switches into the centre to Vlastuin, Short again runs past for handball receive, kicks short from inside the centre circle, aiming for Martin in between two Saints, 25-metre pass bounces 5 metres in front of him. Clark gathers and after a few fumbles under pressure, Saints clear.

7.25 Astbury wins free at right half-back. Switches to Houli, who completes the switch all the way across the ground for the unmanned Short to mark. He chips a 14-metre pass for Castagna to mark. Castagna plays on – to the inside – breaks a line and hits a leading Rioli lace out in the corridor.

4.19 Saints have a mark just forward of centre. Keep your eye on Short, he’s at the right edge of the frame as Patton switches to the left. Short jogs after his man Long back inside 50. When the next kick comes in, you see that Short has sagged off Long, 10-15 metres away from the contest. Long tackles Vlastuin, then a combination of Richmond’s defenders (minus Short but including Houli) plus Cotch, George, Graham, Lambert and Soldo battle with the Saints and the ball eventually goes out of bounds. Short does not get involved. Not even close. You can say “it’s his role” to stay clear of the action to be an outlet option, but when some of his biggest fans are also some of the harsher critics of the likes of George, KMac (also back helping out) and Brando, it wears a bit thin when those blokes bust their arses to cover for Short while he slinks off in the hope of an easy kick.

3.15 Bolton takes a good mark just behind the wing. Short runs past (on the outside again, on the boundary – line-breakers cut inside), receives the handball and kicks a high 45-metre ball that Dusty runs onto and marks. Dusty’s vision and skill lead Chol into a lace out chest mark he didn’t even know was coming, goal. Score involvement for Short.

2.00 Dunstan kicks inside 50, over the head of Short who is loose, guarding space. Astbury is clean bowled by the bouncing ball. Short watches from his front row seat as Ellis, Astbury, Broad and Grimes pressure the Saints and force a turnover. He was right there, did not impact the play or lay a finger on an opponent. Spectated.

1.20 Lambert wins holding the ball against Hannebery at half-forward. Short calls for the handball backwards, winds up and bombs long to the top of the goal square. Dusty in a 1-on-2, Marshall (ruckman) marks. 60 metres gained though! KPIs!

2nd quarter

15.36 Hannebery kicks long to the wing. Short in a 1-on-1 marking contest with Parker, holds front spot then falls over under slight physical contact. Parker is set to run away with it but Broad swoops in to save the day.

12.26 Prestia kicks from back pocket over Broad’s head, Marshall gathers 55 out and chips pass to Long, with Short five metres behind, watching him mark it 20 out straight in front without laying a glove on him. Goal Long.

11.29 Ball in our 50, Bruce handballs forwards, lands between Short and a Saint. Saint attacks it, Short short-steps and lays an ineffective tackle, allowing a sweeping 15-metre handball onto the tit of Billings. Saints run it up for Sinclair to find Hind with his 9-metre centering kick for a mark and goal.

10.05 Long ball by Acres out of defence to the wing. Short again holds front spot, again goes to ground in the marking contest. Just falls over under the slightest of contact. Out of the play, man down. Saints run it up and Hind goals again.

9.32 Long marks on the lead metres in front of Short again. Wheels and hits Membrey. Goal.

Four goals in three minutes of playing time, all after Short couldn’t hold his ground, hold a tackle, or keep up with his man.

8.20 The Saints kick the ball inside their 50. Short's man goes to the contest, Short goes the opposite way. He leaves us a man down at the contest so he can get an easy kick if and when we win it - calculated gamble. Vlastuin wins it, handballs under pressure to Houli, who under pressure, punches it to Broad, who has a bit of time to handball to Prestia who chips to Lambert on the wing, who handballs to Short in space. He bombs long to a pack of four Saints, Lynch and Chol. Lynch is behind and forced to spoil, it falls to Bolton and he goals. Score involvement.

6.24 Centre bounce ball kicked to the wing. Brando is on his own so Short’s man goes to him, allowing Ellis to handball backwards to the free Short. Dodges this way and that then bombs a long high left-footer 50-odd metres to half-forward. Lambert is caught behind and has to spoil.

4.59 Gresham set shot sprays out on the full. Short takes the free kick. Runs his 15 and kicks high and long to a pack on the wing. Unearned disposal, 75 metres gained.

2.45 Wilkie bombs out of defence straight to Short. The kid Patton arrives late and does enough to cause Short to drop what for an AFL footballer is a sitter. Stays upright though, gathers the spill and handballs while being ragdolled, misses Ellis, it bounces off the hands of a Saints player, ending with Dusty, to Ellis, to Lambert, to George, to Stack, goal. Score involvement! Count it!

3rd quarter

11.25 Membrey set shot across goal marked by Chol, little handball to Short, runs a bit hesitantly, looks inside, then kicks long and high to the wing where Lynch is outnumbered and Carlisle marks. Another 70 metres gained!

10.40 Long bomb into St Kilda forward line. Ball comes to ground. Short is near the ball, near Gresham, but ignores Gresham and follows the ball. Doesn’t get near it, just hovers in case it comes his way. Parker kicks it 40 metres backwards when Gresham and another Saint are basically unattended 25 out. Ball comes back and Long marks on the lead on 50. Short is nowhere to be seen so I guess Long wasn’t his man at this point. Or Short’s unaccountable, you pick. (Grimes comes off Membrey to try to affect the spoil.) Long sprays torp, Caddy gathers contested ball, hands off to George who bombs long to Dusty in a 1-on-2, Coffield marks.

8.40 Ross kicks a point. Short wants to take the kick-in, Shedda tells him to get lost. Sheds shortpass to Astbury, another to Caddy, handball wide to Short (always wide), Short runs to D50 and his short pass aimed for Cotchin hits McKenzie on the chest.

6.50 Prestia is smashed in a marking contest, play on, Houli picks up loose, handpass to unmanned Short who chips across half back to Astbury. Astbury's 16-metre pass to Vlastuin is deemed to not have gone as far as the 8-metre ones they pay all the time, turnover, but Tiger defenders (except Short, he’s exempt) get back and recover the ball.

4.50 Parker kick to Ross is called not 15, Short runs past him and maybe touches him with a finger of his outstretched left arm. Maybe.

3.50 Gresham kicks long to the pocket. Short does ok to keep Parker out of the contest but stands flat-footed as Marshall marks. I’m not hanging him for that, tough for him to do anything. However, Short then stands the mark and doesn’t hand over Parker to anyone. Parker sneaks forward, receives a short pass and kicks an easy goal.
 
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4th quarter

19.35 Doesn’t attack a loose ball, Hind kicks a point off the ground. Broad chips kick-in and Short marks uncontested in back pocket. Kicks outside 50, Soldo gives away free to Marshall in 1-on-1. Marshall kicks back to the hotspot, Short is caught under it, Bruce comes through and knocks him out of the way. Bruce finds it on the ground, Short is hesitant and makes no real attempt to tackle as Bruce shimmies and kicks the ball out of bounds.

16.50 Marshall long kick inside 50 to a pack. Short is ‘goalkeeping’ 10 metres behind the pack, the ball spills to Steele, Short puts his arms in the air, Steele kicks a point. Short takes kick-in, steps out of the square sideways, runs to level with the top of the square and kicks long, gaining a stat and 65 metres. Martin marks but ruled to have pushed Clark in the back. (If Rance did what Clark did – well, we saw.) Clark kicks long inside 50, Ellis roves pack, handballs long, wide and forward to Stack, who gives a little one to Short on the overlap (boundary side), lovely flat 40-metre pass to Dusty – his best kick of the day.

15.15 Soldo intercept mark in D50, worked by hand through a few players until Ellis under pressure flicks one over his shoulder to Short, who has spread to the boundary (orthodox play). Short cuts back inside to evade a tackle and hooks the ball long and high to the wing where Bolton takes a fantastic mark in front of Savage. Unbroken play until Ellis snaps his (allowed) goal, so score involvement? Shows how much Ellis runs too.

11.45 Throw-in on our F50. Ball bobbles around a bit, Billings handball comes towards Short, who doesn’t attack it, pushes Parker in the back and gets away with it, then loses track of where the ball is and the Saints run away with it.

9.45 Saints go long to the wing, Grimes spoils Membrey, Short in position to rove but sees Bruce coming the other way and Short-steps again. Ball goes out of bounds.

8.50 Hot ball in St Kilda hot spot, Short lurking out the back as Prestia, Astbury and Ellis fight for the ball. Hind kicks a point. Short takes kick-in, runs one metre sideways out of the square and chips a pass to Houli. Get that stat!

7.00 Caddy wins contested ground ball at half back, handpass to Astbury, handpass wide to Short, he’s confronted so handballs backwards to Houli, to Caddy, who clears to the wing. Bolton makes something out of nothing, ball ends up out of bounds in forward pocket, Chol catches the throw-in for walk-in goal. Is that a score involvement for Short? Surely not.

6.20 Matched up on Billings, who pushes off him, gets five metres and kicks a point.

5.00 Lambert wins loose ball deep in defence, one-metre backwards handpass to Short, ditto to Vlastuin. Clears. Unbroken chain ends with Stacks 4th goal, so I guess that’s a score involvement for about eight players, although it’s all on Dusty’s inboard spear to Chol.
 
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Watching the game again, George was much better than he got credit for.

By the way, Lamby, I am gobsmacked that anyone could be a Short fan and a Houli hater. No such thing as objective reality, I guess.
 
It's his first game back so I'll cut him some slack. Been a Short fan but gotta admit even before his injury he was really starting to get on my nerves
 
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We are all arm chair experts. But anyway that metres gained stat is flawed. The true reflection of metres gained should be measured by its effectiveness. How many times did he kick it to a 50-50 contest resulting in a turn over?
I was at the game and Short turned it over twice in as many minutes. Metres gained probably about 50m however effectiveness - nil. Going at 68% efficiency says it all.
Yep, I was at the game too. Saw Dusty turn it over unforced 2 or 3 times......
 
We are all arm chair experts. But anyway that metres gained stat is flawed. The true reflection of metres gained should be measured by its effectiveness. How many times did he kick it to a 50-50 contest resulting in a turn over?
I was at the game and Short turned it over twice in as many minutes. Metres gained probably about 50m however effectiveness - nil. Going at 68% efficiency says it all.

Yep, I was at the game too. Saw Dusty turn it over unforced 2 or 3 times......
...and Dusty averages 63% efficiency too.

So I guess Shorty was pretty good at 68% in his first game back? ;)

Doesn't really matter though.
Some people won't accept anything as a pass mark from players they don't like.
 
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By the way, Lamby, I am gobsmacked that anyone could be a Short fan and a Houli hater. No such thing as objective reality, I guess.

I was thinking the same thing.

Im an unabached Houli fan and Ive had a complex relationship with Shorty.

But the fact the MC rushed him back in after so long, and we kick our 2nd biggest score of the year, suggests to me I'm a fan whether I know it or not.

and I did feel really good when shorty had it and I knew he would hoof it 60m.
 
It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue.
Playing the man, Scoop. Don't make it personal, don't take it personal, that's my motto.

...and Dusty averages 63% efficiency too.

So I guess Shorty was pretty good at 68% in his first game back? ;)

Doesn't really matter though.
Some people won't accept anything as a pass mark from players they don't like.
Good grief.
 
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I really don't like him, as a footballer, no. He reminds of the joke what do you call someone who hangs out with musicians - a drummer. Jayden Short has lots of friends who play football, and he runs around on the park while they do, and occasionally they give him a kick.

I disagree with your contentions. For a start, Castagna has kicked more goals than any of our other smalls. I disagree Short is normally much better by foot. I strongly disagree he hits scything diagonals to advantage that break open play. When? He kicks long and high down the line most of the time.

Pickett will surprise you, but take him out of it. We are likely to bring in a tall defender for finals - Rance, Balta or Garth. So someone goes out. Even if Stack doesn't move back to defence, Short is the first to go.

Ellis will go too, but Short is not the man to replace him on the wing. Again, imagine him on Brad Hill, or Sidebottom. Massacre.

This is reaching Lamby / Houli vendetta levels Spook.

Give it up, lad. The club rates him highly.

Many here rate him highly.

He runs 20m, kicks long and clears defensive zones with penetration.

Perfect synergy with how we play.

We missed him dearly and I’m glad he’s back.

You’re entitled to your opinion but this is a tad silly.
 
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This is reaching Lamby / Houli vendetta levels Spook.

Give it up, lad. The club rates him highly.

Many here rate him highly.

He runs 20m, kicks long and clears defensive zones with penetration.

Perfect synergy with how we play.

We missed him dearly and I’m glad he’s back.

You’re entitled to your opinion but this is a tad silly.
What condescending tripe. "I don't like what you're saying, so you better stop saying it, there's a good boy. Some of us disagree with you, and the club is always right, don't you know. Stop being mean to Jayden by pointing out his flaws and failings. It's silly."

It's a forum for opinions. I made some statements about Short that were challenged, so I thought I would provide evidence. I'm done now.
 
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Watching the game again, George was much better than he got credit for.

By the way, Lamby, I am gobsmacked that anyone could be a Short fan and a Houli hater. No such thing as objective reality, I guess.

Does anyone remember Lindsey Gilbee. Much worse than Houli or Short defensively but an absolute elite ball user. You'd tear your hair out with some of his one on ones but you wouldn't want anyone else having a shot at goal or spotting up someone inside 50.

The reason I like Shorty is because he is a real elite kick unlike the pretender Houli and objective facts like AFL player ratings agree.

Shorty started 2018 at around 380 in the AFL and finished 167. Because he got injured he has dropped to 236. Had he not been injured I'd say he would be comfortably inside 150 if not 100.

Bachar's highest rating is 170 and his highest in the last 3 years is 209. Contrary to common perception that Bachar has had a good year he has dropped in AFL ratings from 209 to 268 this year primarily because they assess the effect of his kicks/involvements rather than merely counting them like so many sheep do.

Detailed analysis Spook but I already mentioned AFL ratings had Shorty as our worst. Fact is that is an outlier though as detailed above and even when he has a shocker he has 4 or 5 moments that create opportunities and scores.

'Objective reality' seems to conflict with the Houli loveatorium on here though.
 
What condescending tripe. "I don't like what you're saying, so you better stop saying it, there's a good boy. Some of us disagree with you, and the club is always right, don't you know. Stop being mean to Jayden by pointing out his flaws and failings. It's silly."

It's a forum for opinions. I made some statements about Short that were challenged, so I thought I would provide evidence. I'm done now.

Nah you make some good points.

And the club isn’t always right. But these days ... they are almost always right.

I don’t think every player in the back six needs to be Duncan Kellaway.

A good back six is like good gut flora. A diverse range of types, and as a whole able to pump *smile* back out efficiently.

Short may not always hit his 70m plays, but if the ball is turned over, it’s on the wing.

For the rest of the season, it’ll be on the MCG wing. Just where we want it.