Horrific pictures coming out of Ukraine today. Would be so scary for the poor Ukranian people.
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Russia Invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
Reckon old President Xman will be looking on with interest. Old mate Putin on the ritz gets away with snaffling up the Uke while Sleepy Joe is nappin n the rest of Europe is kissin Putin's arse to keep the lights n heaters on during winter. Bloody good chance Xman goes all hairy chested macho in a few months n kicks the *smile* out of Taiwan. Nothing n no-one around capable of doing anything more than some finger waggling n noisy bleating.
What do you suggest Tiger Masochist? A full scale war with China if they invade Taiwan? It is not an easy situation, when the invading country is large, militarily strong and has nukes. Actually I did just think of something, maybe we stop selling iron ore and coal to China - if we're serious about trying to stop them from invading Taiwan then why do we still sell them the means to do so?
After I posted the old map of the borders of the Russian Empire pre-WWI, I was thinking about this. What we are being told in the news reports is that Russia is trying to take over Ukraine. But while you can certainly accuse Russia of expansionism in Ukraine, Russia can equally argue that the West has been expanding into what has been Russia in the past and they are just trying to reverse some western expansionism. NATO can certainly be accused of expansionism into territory which was part of Russia before WWI and from the end of WWII to around 1990, just not sure of the borders in the period in between.
Not as clear cut as it is being made out to be.
DS
After I posted the old map of the borders of the Russian Empire pre-WWI, I was thinking about this. What we are being told in the news reports is that Russia is trying to take over Ukraine. But while you can certainly accuse Russia of expansionism in Ukraine, Russia can equally argue that the West has been expanding into what has been Russia in the past and they are just trying to reverse some western expansionism. NATO can certainly be accused of expansionism into territory which was part of Russia before WWI and from the end of WWII to around 1990, just not sure of the borders in the period in between.
Not as clear cut as it is being made out to be.
DS
With the warning that Putin gave to the rest of the world around anyone interferring will be met with an immediate response with massive consequences, I cannot see how he has done this without some knowledge that he will have allies that will support him and thats where China come in. Between them they probably have a military power that could match the rest of the world, which makes them an incredibly dangerous duo and thats the biggest issue. Will this act of war lead to full scale war and if it does, how far does it spread?
Very dangerous times indeed.
I thought you were a massive leftie David. That response is crazy.
So because Russia previously had control over the territories that are now the Ukraine, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Georgia and many many others, you indicate that they should be able to take it back despite the people of those countries VOTING IN INDEPENDENCE votes??
NATO did not take those territories away from Russia, those independent areas voted for independence.
Britain took full control of Australia as a territory and granted it independence in 1901. Do you think Britain still have rights to take back power in Australia?
Not much chance of a full scale war with anyone these days, world's got way to much fire power for it's own good n none of the Western democracies have the agates for a full scale brawl.
Mobs like China, Russia n a whole bunch of minor dictatorship countries will simply keep grabbing any free floating bits they take a fancy too.
We could stop selling iron ore n coal n food to China, so could other countries at the same time. But that'll never happen as countries would cripple their own economies n some other *smile* country would always sneak into the void left open quick smart.
Problem with that old map of Russia is that like pretty much all of the world way back when, lots of different countries invaded n beat the *smile* out of various other countries n swallowed up their existence. Twenty years, Fifty years, Hundred years, Two Hundred years............................... Where do we draw the timeline on who owned what country n when should it be given back to the original owners.
Haaarrrggh. Sounds like a great idea. Get the lads to throw a few handfuls of nukes around for a day or two n no-one'll b complaining about climate change for a hell of a long time. Might even help solve a few over population problems at the same time.
The US would know a thing or 2 about an invasion. Eerily similar scenes to the US invasion of Iraq 20 years ago.
This time Putin is liberating his Russian people in eastern Ukraine. Vlad has had enough of NATO inching closer to his border and neo nazis butchering his people.
If it was good enough for Kosovo to be liberated by force then it's good enough for Donbas.
This time Putin is liberating his Russian people in eastern Ukraine. Vlad has had enough of NATO inching closer to his border and neo nazis butchering his people.
If it was good enough for Kosovo to be liberated by force then it's good enough for Donbas.
They've redeployed all their military resources from the China border to the Ukraine offensive. You can bet your lefty China approves at minimum or complicit at worst. All depends if Ukraine is the start or the end of it.
I think the thread title should be more reflective of whats happening?
Russia invades Ukraine?
It could turn out a longer thread than Tambling, or Covid.
It could be the last thread?
Yep.
I think this invasion transends any tendencies toward contrarionism, propaganda (the old word for Facebook) skeptism, anti-capitalism, etc
putin is a crazy *smile*,
And he wants a new world order that wont be as nice as the current world order,
And thats sayin' something
Having said that, im pretty sure i thought Covid was a hoax on page 1.
I definately never thought Tambling was any good but
People on here insinuating that NATO are encroaching on Russian territory is frankly scary.
There was a reason why Ukraine was so desperate to join NATO and today we found out why. The aggressor here is Putin NOT NATO like some seem to think.
Agree on Putin too, he is so power hungry, you only have to look at the changes he has made to the Russian constitution etc. You may say, "well if its not right for politicians then they won't vote for it". People should take a look at what happens to Putins political rivals. They all seem to get very similar treatment, whether that treatment is dished out within Russia or after crossing International borders.
I am a leftie
But I can also be contrarian!
Plus, I like provoking debate.
I'm not saying Russia and Putin are right to argue that they should get all the territories the Russian Empire held in 1914, what I am saying is that if the West wants to accuse Russia of expansionism, then Russia has grounds to throw the same accusation back at the West.
There are plenty of other factors one can throw in. Wasn't the West involved in overthrowing one of the previous governments in Ukraine? So it isn't just Russia trying to intervene in Ukranian affairs, the West has done the same and is no doubt still doing so. Both sides want a compliant regime in Ukraine.
I don't have a very high opinion of "representative democracy", it sure beats authoritarianism but I don't see it as particularly democratic. Those independence votes would not have been totally free and fair, manipulation would have been going on all over the place. I'm all for self-determination, but I don't delude myself that somehow acts of self-determination occur in some unadulterated environment of total freedom.
Not a crazy response, a response which recognises that there are many sides to any conflict. A response which also seeks to understand where both sides are coming from. If we truly want to stop a full blown war in Ukraine, we have to understand what is driving the various actors in the conflict. Simply labelling Putin as insane or the like is useless and Putin does not strike me as unhinged, he strikes me as a cunning and smart operator. This is not a whim, this is Putin trying to expand his interests and his power. No doubt he is also playing domestic politics too. Plus, he looks like he will get away with whatever he is up to unless someone has some way of stopping him which is actually within the realms of possibility.
In terms of our own independence, I seem to recall that a Brit is our Head of State!
DS
