• PRE should be functioning as per usual. Please email admin@puntroadend.com to report anything odd that is occuring over the next few days as we settle a few database issues.

Anthony Mundine bizarre antigay rant

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
2,880
10
NT
www.youtube.com
antman said:
Honestly don't know how they can make it more explicit for you Lee. Orthodox Catholicism sees Hell as a place where people go and burn in fire for all eternity. Your interpretation of the Catechism (or mine) as a non-Catholic doesn't matter. That's what these people teach and believe. They also believe that demons still possess people and must be exorcised.
Yes Hell is a place as is Heaven. This is not controversial in any mainstream Christian denomination. The concept of a burning hell and lots of other things about the afterlife are. As well as that how you get there is. Calvinists believe 'once saved always saved', Arminians believe you can lose your salvation, for Catholics it is being in a state of grace conferred by the priesthood (ie having confessed your sins).
 
E

easy_tiger

Guest
Djevv said:
Yes Hell is a place as is Heaven. for Catholics it is being in a state of grace conferred by the priesthood (ie having confessed your sins).
Catholics can also reserve a seat in Heaven from this mortal earth, by paying cash.

Ivan Milat could take the elevator at the right price.

The door ***** must be a pretty corrupted angel?

which makes me wonder, why she wouldn't fall out of the sky?
 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
It's not explicit at all.
Which parts weren't explicit enough? This bit? The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.

Would a personalised video message to you from the Holy Father in the Vatican confirming this is indeed the case be enough for you?
 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
Djevv said:
Yes Hell is a place as is Heaven. This is not controversial in any mainstream Christian denomination. The concept of a burning hell and lots of other things about the afterlife are. As well as that how you get there is. Calvinists believe 'once saved always saved', Arminians believe you can lose your salvation, for Catholics it is being in a state of grace conferred by the priesthood (ie having confessed your sins).
Thank you Djevv.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,675
899
Melbourne
antman said:
Which parts weren't explicit enough? This bit? The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.

Would a personalised video message to you from the Holy Father in the Vatican confirming this is indeed the case be enough for you?
Suggest your comprehension is one-dimensional.

Most mention of hell in the Bible is contained in Revelation which is heavy on symbolism. Hell only makes sense as a state of separation from God.

Anyway, this is why I'm agnostic. Hell as a spiritual state of torment is viable to me, but to anyone who insists that hell is a physical place beneath our feet, I'm going to nod my head slowly and excuse myself.
 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Anyway, this is why I'm agnostic. Hell as a spiritual state of torment is viable to me, but to anyone who insists that hell is a physical place beneath our feet, I'm going to nod my head slowly and excuse myself.
Agree with you 100% on that, but it's not what we believe. It's what they believe.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,675
899
Melbourne
antman said:
Agree with you 100% on that, but it's not what we believe. It's what they believe.
Pretty sure (but again, Djevv can correct me) that the Bible is not viewed within the church as the precise word of God, but rather the work of divinely inspired men through whom God acted. As such, any imperfections are human.
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
2,880
10
NT
www.youtube.com
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Pretty sure (but again, Djevv can correct me) that the Bible is not viewed within the church as the precise word of God, but rather the work of divinely inspired men through whom God acted. As such, any imperfections are human.
I bolded the part which is correct. Being divinely inspired makes it the the Bible the Word of God. No-one believes it was physically written by God (except maybe the 10 commandments).

But Churches are different. Catholic's believe it is the Word of God but the final interpretation is up to the Pope & tradition is important. Protestants believe it is the Word of God also but scripture interprets scripture - which has lead to a lot of division. Liberals reinterpret the bible a lot as figurative & metaphorical, Fundamentalists are more literal. Imperfections? I like your view. But if you believe in infallibility there are none!
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,791
454
Djevv said:
Yes I have read that the attention kids get from suicide can be a trigger.
Sort of defeats the purpose doesn’t it?

Agree with easy, some awful ideas springing from this discussion.
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,791
454
Djevv said:
for Catholics it is being in a state of grace conferred by the priesthood (ie having confessed your sins).
Unfortunately for many kids that’s not the only thing they confer.
 

LeeToRainesToRoach

Get out Gillon
Jun 4, 2006
23,675
899
Melbourne
Djevv said:
I bolded the part which is correct. Being divinely inspired makes it the the Bible the Word of God. No-one believes it was physically written by God (except maybe the 10 commandments).

But Churches are different. Catholic's believe it is the Word of God but the final interpretation is up to the Pope & tradition is important. Protestants believe it is the Word of God also but scripture interprets scripture - which has lead to a lot of division. Liberals reinterpret the bible a lot as figurative & metaphorical, Fundamentalists are more literal. Imperfections? I like your view. But if you believe in infallibility there are none!
Ah, I got most of my interpretation from this book, which I read quite a few years ago now. It made quite a lot of sense to me as a layperson, whereas the Bible can be inscrutable in places if taken literally.

 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Pretty sure (but again, Djevv can correct me) that the Bible is not viewed within the church as the precise word of God, but rather the work of divinely inspired men through whom God acted. As such, any imperfections are human.
Lee - look, the Catechism says explicitly that it's OK to be gay as long as you are chaste! *cites passage from Catechism* This proves that religion is OK with gayness and it's all their minds why they even mad lol

Ant - the Catechism *cites passage* also says explicitly that Hell is real and you will burn in eternal fire. Ouch.

Djevvy - yes, Christianity asserts that Heaven and Hell are real. No question about it.

Lee - oh yeah but the Bible and Catechism etc was written by people not God so for sure there are transcription problems and we can just discount the whole Hell thing as human error basically.

FFS
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,367
0
Regardless of where people stand on the whole argument of this being a matter of suppressing Folau's right to express his religious faith, or not. My concern lies more in the creeping overeach of policing what people say.

As in, state (and/or employer) imposed truth on matters being the only permitted format to express views in relation to a particular topic.

For example LGBTIQ+++ politics and advocacy is now delving very heavily into transgender and intersex issues, where sport has become the latest battleground.

Many reasonable people wish no ill will on transgender or intersex athletes, but are of the opinion that the only people who should be permitted to compete in women's sport are those born biologically female. This view usually being purely on the basis of basic, objective, observable scientific fact. But no matter how objective and reasonable such a view is, it is increasingly being howled down, with the inference being that such views being expressed, constitute bigoted hate speech.

As such, I can see a day that the LBGTI political lobby's position on this becomes state (and corporate world's) enforced truth on the matter and any view contrary is not permitted to be uttered in public discourse, without punishment &/or sanction.
 

Midsy

Into the future...
Jan 18, 2014
2,511
150
47
London
Panthera Tigris said:
Regardless of where people stand on the whole argument of this being a matter of suppressing Folau's right to express his religious faith, or not My concern lies more in the creeping overeach of policing what people say.

As in, state (and/or employer) imposed truth on matters being the only permitted format to express views in relation to a particular topic.

For example LGBTIQ+++ politics and advocacy is now delving very heavily into transgender and intersex issues, where sport has become the latest battleground.

Many reasonable people wish no ill will on transgender or intersex athletes, but are of the opinion that the only people who should be permitted to compete in women's sport are those born biologically female. This view usually being purely on the basis of basic, objective, observable scientific fact. But no matter how objective and reasonable such a view is, it is increasingly being howeled down, with tge inference being that it is bigoted hate speech.

As such, I can see a day that the LBGTI political lobby's position on this becomes state (and corporate world's) inforced truth on the matter and any view contrary is not permitted to be uttered in public discourse without punishment.
We’re pretty much there already.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,367
0
Midsy said:
We’re pretty much there already.
And unfortunately, this is where social justice political fundamentalism has become a kind of quasi-religion. Developing it's own set of default secular blasphemy laws.

There is often the inference that as religion (mostly Christianity) declines in the western world, we become a more enlightened society. Where logical reason and observable, objective facts become the central premise as to how people view the world. And that is a logical conclusion to draw. However the example I give demonstrates that this kind of fanatical social justice fundamentalism - flamed by the megaphone of social media - is actually causing people to do the opposite. And instead, behave like pre-enlightened, desert dwelling religious zealots. Not only that, basically a state & corporate sponsored quasi-religion.

I look forward to witnessing a new portfolio being set up in Parliament. The Minister for Truth, who is charged with responsibility of managing State imposed truths. ;)
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
2,880
10
NT
www.youtube.com
antman said:
Lee - look, the Catechism says explicitly that it's OK to be gay as long as you are chaste! *cites passage from Catechism* This proves that religion is OK with gayness and it's all their minds why they even mad lol

Ant - the Catechism *cites passage* also says explicitly that Hell is real and you will burn in eternal fire. Ouch.

Djevvy - yes, Christianity asserts that Heaven and Hell are real. No question about it.

Lee - oh yeah but the Bible and Catechism etc was written by people not God so for sure there are transcription problems and we can just discount the whole Hell thing as human error basically.

FFS
I think that Lee is right in saying that you are drawing too long a bow in your posts saying the Catechism consigns homosexuals to Hell. It is saying being a practicing homosexual IS a sin and you need to repent and practice celibacy. It does not say explicitly say if you don't you go to hell for all eternity. According to Catholicism you go to Hell if you die having committed a mortal sin you have not confessed. Even then I don't think the Church will say person x is definitely in hell because that is up to the final judgement of God. Although I am not a Catholic that is pretty similar to what I believe. I know committed Christians who are homosexuals.

With Izzy's post I also think that it is in error. The scripture it paraphrases goes 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.' 1Cor 6:9-10 NKJV. The verse is addressed to Christians not to unbelievers firstly. It is saying this sort of behavior is not fitting for Christians. It has nothing about Hell. Jesus brought the kingdom of God to Earth when he came so I think the passage is referring to that not the afterlife.

While I am going Lee said that Revelation is about Hell. That is incorrect. Revelation is mostly about heaven and end-times. All the depictions of heaven you hear about (pearly gates, streets paved with gold ) come from there. It does have the lake of fire in it though - the final destination of the wicked.
 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
I never said that the Catechism explicity condemns gay people to Hell, I merely said it explicitly references Hell as a reality, as it we both agree. As to whether gay people are condemned to hell in Christian theology or not I imagine you get differing opinions in Catholicism and in other versions of Christianity. The Bible is pretty clear that gay people will be "denied the Kingdom of God". Does that mean they go to Hell or to Purgatory - stuffed if I know.

What I do know is that a literalist Christian approach to this question causes gay people a lot of unnecessary suffering.
 

lukeanddad

Tiger Champion
Nov 17, 2008
2,915
143
antman said:
The Bible is pretty clear that gay people will be "denied the Kingdom of God". Does that mean they go to Hell or to Purgatory - stuffed if I know.
At the risk of confusing matters, there is a fourth place. Limbo. I recall this joint was reserved for people who had been goodish, but never christened - ie they had original sin. As the name suggests, not much happens there. I learned this stuff at a catholic school, so not sure if other Christians taught this as well. If you corner senior catholic clergy, I’m sure they would say these places are real, but as Djevv has said, that doesn’t reckon on how god would judge a person’s life
 

antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
16,538
827
Bali/Jakarta
lukeanddad said:
At the risk of confusing matters, there is a fourth place. Limbo. I recall this joint was reserved for people who had been goodish, but never christened - ie they had original sin. As the name suggests, not much happens there. I learned this stuff at a catholic school, so not sure if other Christians taught this as well. If you corner senior catholic clergy, I’m sure they would say these places are real, but as Djevv has said, that doesn’t reckon on how god would judge a person’s life
Oh yeah, Limbo. Forgot about that one.
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,791
454
Djevv said:
Genetic fallacy.
So it would have been adopted regardless?

Is it not widely accepted that the pacific islands were converted to Christianity over a period of centuries?