Australian Economics

[Giardiasis]

Righto. I'll go back to the less crazy threads. Jeez your tin hat may well need a new strap. The scepticism you show to any government interaction is worrying. I'm not really sure what succeeding from the rest of Australia has to do with economic decisions like this one. Its fairly clear cut and I agree with MB78 that maybe in Melbourne this may not have occurred but in Portland thats a different story. There are so many impacts of creating ghost towns by removing the main source of income for that town.

Government interaction is a gun to the head, so yeah I'm a wee bit sceptical about such "interactions". The point I was making is that politicians act in their own interests only, not in the interests of all by seeing "the bigger picture". The decision to hand money to the smelter provided the government with political capital, "look at all the jobs we have saved!". The bit about WA succession was to back up my claim that they suffer no competition, to demonstrate that they operate under very different rules from the rest of us, and hence to consider the economy and the government as synonymous is patently wrong.

Whether the potline was in Melbourne or Portland doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things. It just unmasks the uneconomical operation of surrounding businesses to the smelter. You need to focus less on the things you can see and consider the things you can't see. The business activity that can't happen now due to the redistribution, the increase in time preference (i.e. the greater propensity to consume rather than save/invest) of taxed persons to pay for the hand out, the increase in moral hazard for big businesses, the increased spending by businesses to lobby for government assistance rather than focusing on providing value to consumers, etc.

 

[Giardiasis]

Another one.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/its-stealing-off-other-australian-citizens-government-defends-cash-crackdown/news-story/cf2caa4a19faa6e80eab6aa6c0bc3881

My vote for the most *smile* thing said by an Aussie politician in 2017: “at the end of the day, it’s stealing off other Australian citizens if you don’t pay your tax” - Kelly O'Dwyer.

 

[Giardiasis]

War on cash is ramping up:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/federal-budget-to-crack-down-on-illegal-cash-payments/news-story/6f7f74931f66f225fbfcdf5088e5f419

 

[1eyedtiger]

I fail to see what they're going to do to stop the cash economy. Abolish cash? And then what? Electronic transactions only? And how do they then differentiate 'income' from funds transfers? Maybe promise to scrap all existing taxes in favor of a 'transaction' tax instead. Something that has been talked about in the past. And once this is implemented, cry poor and retain existing taxes anyway.

As for electronic transactions, you sort of need something. Electricity. Something we may be short of soon. What happens when the power goes down? Cash is a tangible asset. You can have it and hold it, stash it under your bed if you want to. Bank accounts on the other hand are really nothing more than a few bytes of information on a computer server somewhere. It isn't real. We are at the mercy of the banks in regards to security and accuracy of the information on those servers. If access to the servers is lost or something happens to those servers and any backups, you lose. If cash is abolished, there will be no choice but to accept the risks of this system, not that there is much now ever since being paid wages by cash disappeared.

 

[easy_tiger]

War on cash is ramping up:

I'll back cash in that conflict.

 

[Giardiasis]

I'll back cash in that conflict.

Sure just like drugs have won the war on drugs, but it is a pyrrhic victory.

 

[tigersnake]

War on cash is ramping up:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/federal-budget-to-crack-down-on-illegal-cash-payments/news-story/6f7f74931f66f225fbfcdf5088e5f419

wish they'd crack down on the big business offshore tax evasion economy.

I've got nothing against tradies doing a cashy for a mate, but Have to admit, when I go to a large busy Asian restaurant and they have the 'CASH ONLY' sign up, Pacific House in Richmond do it, and there heaps here in Brisbane, Byron Bay, its pretty obvious what they're doing, dunno how they get away with it, these joints are well-known, big and packed. There's a joint in Byron who have cash only, but have an in-house private ATM, which seems pretty dodgy, and a tangled web-double-dipping money spinner.

 

[poppa x]

wish they'd crack down on the big business offshore tax evasion economy.

This.
And tackle the cash economy at the same time.
It's not rocket science.

 

[Giardiasis]

Poppa and TS, do you try and reduce your taxable income?

 

[tigersnake]

Poppa and TS, do you try and reduce your taxable income?

nuh. But even if I did, big transnational corporations have a whole different test of rules, whole different ball game, shooting match. to suggest otherwise is naive, misinformed, or ludicrous.

The amount of big companies that pay no tax, or miniscule amounts is all on the public record. There was a senate inquiry into it not so long ago. CEOs got grilled, everyone went 'that is wrong', then nothing happened.

 

[poppa x]

Poppa and TS, do you try and reduce your taxable income?

Not really.
I pay the full company tax rate of 30%.
And I pay the maximum personal tax rate of 48.5%.
So I do my bit.
I probably pay more tax than Apple, Google, et al.
Which p*sses me off.
As do the cash only businesses.

And before you start bamboozling me with your argumements, let me say I don't object to my high tax rates. No problem at all, and I consider myself a lucky man who is fortunate enough to be moderately wealthy and give full time employment to about 30 people.
I just wish the big end of town thought the same way.

 

[tigersnake]

Not really.
I pay the full company tax rate of 30%.
And I pay the maximum personal tax rate of 48.5%.
So I do my bit.
I probably pay more tax than Apple, Google, et al.
Which p*sses me off.
As do the cash only businesses.

And before you start bamboozling me with your argumements, let me say I don't object to my high tax rates. No problem at all, and I consider myself a lucky man who is fortunate enough to be moderately wealthy and give full time employment to about 30 people.
I just wish the big end of town thought the same way.

X2. right on pop

 

[Willo]

War on cash is ramping up:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/federal-budget/federal-budget-to-crack-down-on-illegal-cash-payments/news-story/6f7f74931f66f225fbfcdf5088e5f419

They're kidding themselves

I'll back cash in that conflict.

Me too.
Just an example, I had a plumber come to do a job, to relocate my water meter, he bills me (verbally) $330 or if you pay cash, $300
I save $30 (knowing plumbers it was probably only $300 anyway ;D ) but I'm sure most people would be like me and pay cash. Whether he declared it not, not much I can do about it unless I paid by cheque, not many businesses accept them or I direct deposit the amount. Which is more mucking around for me. Plus I don't work for the ATO, maybe they could give everyone some small refund on their tax return for providing a tax collection point 8-
But one small example, butI don't see how they would enforce it.

 

[easy_tiger]

Not really.
I pay the full company tax rate of 30%.
And I pay the maximum personal tax rate of 48.5%.
So I do my bit.
I probably pay more tax than Apple, Google, et al.
Which p*sses me off.
As do the cash only businesses.

And before you start bamboozling me with your argumements, let me say I don't object to my high tax rates. No problem at all, and I consider myself a lucky man who is fortunate enough to be moderately wealthy and give full time employment to about 30 people.
I just wish the big end of town thought the same way.

nice one poppaX

They're kidding themselves
Me too.
Just an example, I had a plumber come to do a job, to relocate my water meter, he bills me (verbally) $330 or if you pay cash, $300
I save $30 (knowing plumbers it was probably only $300 anyway ;D ) but I'm sure most people would be like me and pay cash. Whether he declared it not, not much I can do about it unless I paid by cheque, not many businesses accept them or I direct deposit the amount. Which is more mucking around for me. Plus I don't work for the ATO, maybe they could give everyone some small refund on their tax return for providing a tax collection point 8-
But one small example, butI don't see how they would enforce it.

Most blokes kind of stooge the cash price.

I know this bloke who works for cash from time to time. The equitable way to do it is completely knock off the GST, cause your not collecting it, and split the difference of the tax you wont pay on the undeclared income, slightly in your favour

cash is awfully nice to have in your top pocket, and it needs to work for both parties. So under your scenario willow, if the job was $330 on the books inc gst, it should be about $250 for cash, and everyone should be happy.

This bloke I know, sometimes establishes these guidelines, and the client loves the idea of course, and then they ask whats your bsb and acc no. so they can stick the cash in straight away. :brickwall

of course the big losers in this type of transaction are the schools, hospitals, submarine builders and charter helicopter companies.

 

[MD Jazz]

They're kidding themselves
Me too.
Just an example, I had a plumber come to do a job, to relocate my water meter, he bills me (verbally) $330 or if you pay cash, $300
I save $30 (knowing plumbers it was probably only $300 anyway ;D ) but I'm sure most people would be like me and pay cash.

You got ripped off. The $30 is not his money anyway. By getting cash and not declaring it he saves at least $90 in tax. So next time bargain harder.

Personally I know the cash industry is exploited by too many welfare claimants. Yes, multi nationals need to be paying more tax in the countries where they source the revenue but the cash economy is a massive issue. What about the labourer on average wages - he pays his 10k in tax, claims some boots and laundry and gets 450 back as a refund. Where can he scam the system?

 

[Giardiasis]

nuh. But even if I did, big transnational corporations have a whole different test of rules, whole different ball game, shooting match. to suggest otherwise is naive, misinformed, or ludicrous.

The amount of big companies that pay no tax, or miniscule amounts is all on the public record. There was a senate inquiry into it not so long ago. CEOs got grilled, everyone went 'that is wrong', then nothing happened.

Saying "nuh" is a flat out falsehood, you are saying you have never claimed anything to reduce your tax? Come on...

I don't see why some rules should apply to some, but not to others? I think you think the same except that if you got slapped while someone else didn't, your idea of fairness is for both of you to be slapped instead of you not being slapped!

In terms of taxes, it seems a lot of people don't see anything wrong with theft as long as they see themselves or groups of people they favour as beneficiaries. What's even worse is that they don't understand that in the long run they aren't benefiting at all, and in fact the very opposite of the ends they seek are the result. You want multinationals to pay more taxes, and as a result they have less capital available for investment which results in less jobs, lower wages, less taxable income. Worst case scenario they completely move their businesses out of the country. Again net result less tax, less investment, less supply of goods, higher prices of goods, lower wages, less taxable income.

 

[Giardiasis]

Not really.
I pay the full company tax rate of 30%.
And I pay the maximum personal tax rate of 48.5%.
So I do my bit.
I probably pay more tax than Apple, Google, et al.
Which p*sses me off.
As do the cash only businesses.

And before you start bamboozling me with your argumements, let me say I don't object to my high tax rates. No problem at all, and I consider myself a lucky man who is fortunate enough to be moderately wealthy and give full time employment to about 30 people.
I just wish the big end of town thought the same way.

If you want to do your bit you should be doing all you can to keep your money in your own hands as you will actually have a good chance of spending it wisely, unlike the bureaucrats in the capital cities who will without fail, squander it.

 

[easy_tiger]

If you want to do your bit you should be doing all you can to keep your money in your own hands as you will actually spend it wisely, unlike the bureaucrats in the capital cities who will without fail, squander it.

people claiming they self-distribute their tax is a complete load of crap. They dont put a deposit on a house for the homeless black fella, they give $5 to medicans sans frontiers go on a family holiday to Spain. Anyone who says otherwise is lying through their teeth.

 

[tigersnake]

You want multinationals to pay more taxes, and as a result they have less capital available for investment which results in less jobs, lower wages, less taxable income. Worst case scenario they completely move their businesses out of the country. Again net result less tax, less investment, less supply of goods, higher prices of goods, lower wages, less taxable income.

all of these arguments have been skittled time and time again.

 

[Brodders17]

Saying "nuh" is a flat out falsehood, you are saying you have never claimed anything to reduce your tax? Come on...

I don't see why some rules should apply to some, but not to others? I think you think the same except that if you got slapped while someone else didn't, your idea of fairness is for both of you to be slapped instead of you not being slapped!

In terms of taxes, it seems a lot of people don't see anything wrong with theft as long as they see themselves or groups of people they favour as beneficiaries. What's even worse is that they don't understand that in the long run they aren't benefiting at all, and in fact the very opposite of the ends they seek are the result. You want multinationals to pay more taxes, and as a result they have less capital available for investment which results in less jobs, lower wages, less taxable income. Worst case scenario they completely move their businesses out of the country. Again net result less tax, less investment, less supply of goods, higher prices of goods, lower wages, less taxable income.

agree. we should actually give more tax payers money to these multinationals. then we would have more jobs, higher wages, more taxable income and lower prices. cos we all know big companies put profit low down on their list of priorities.

edit: though i am a little confused why profitable companies continue to push for lower wages, continue to get caught exploiting their workers and shift money offshore to avoid paying tax- surely they would prefer to invest those profits in Australia, by employing more staff and paying higher wages etc. this would have the same result of minimising tax.