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Climate Change

tigersnake said:
Wouldn't just be the unions, business wouldn't have a bar of it.

I'm not against it, but it would require radical restructuring of the economy. Capitalism relies on growth, in everything, except wilderness and social equality of course.

Capitalism has given a lot of us a great standard of living, but it is destroying the planet. We don't seem to be able to manage minor adjustments at the edges to help address climate change, or at least no where near fast enough, let alone substantial adjustments.
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Yeah - I was basically saying blow up the population growth part of capitalism.

You would have building industry more focused on renovation and restoration, other parts of economy focused on efficiency and services, new products and ideas etc.

Inflation should be very low, which means you don't need wage growth at all. This also means debt becomes something that doesn't just get whittled away by inflation / "un-earned" capital appreciation over time and is a real thing you need to pay off fully.

Anyway I haven't properly thought it through but basically a flat overall demand type of economy. You can still invest and get returns but it will be driven by real improvements and not inflation. Potentially you just get a flat type of return / interest rate and way less capital appreciation.
 
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RoarEmotion said:
My policy would be zero population growth. I.e. net immigration = death rate - birth rate

Imagine I’d last a day before a union knocked me off.
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it's the businesses that want perpetual growth and those who own property and want it to keep appreciating who would knock you off Roar
 
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RoarEmotion said:
Yeah - I was basically saying blow up the population growth part of capitalism.

You would have building industry more focused on renovation and restoration, other parts of economy focused on efficiency and services, new products and ideas etc.

Inflation should be very low, which means you don't need wage growth at all. This also means debt becomes something that doesn't just get whittled away by inflation / "un-earned" capital appreciation over time and is a real thing you need to pay off fully.

Anyway I haven't properly thought it through but basically a flat overall demand type of economy. You can still invest and get returns but it will be driven by real improvements and not inflation. Potentially you just get a flat type of return / interest rate and way less capital appreciation.
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People much smarter than us have been thinking it through since the 1970s. Here's one of them, economics legend Herman Daly interviewed in '22.

www.nytimes.com

This Pioneering Economist Says Our Obsession With Growth Must End (Published 2022)

“It’s a false assumption,” argues Herman Daly, “to say that growth is increasing the standard of living in the present world.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

I agree with you, its our only hope. The alternative are rapid and violent overthrow of the system, or slow and steady decline and decay. Whether it does happen or not remains to be seen, not a lot of encouraging signs, there are a few, but they don't seem big enough or happening fast enough.
 
tigersnake said:
People much smarter than us have been thinking it through since the 1970s. Here's one of them, economics legend Herman Daly interviewed in '22.

www.nytimes.com

This Pioneering Economist Says Our Obsession With Growth Must End (Published 2022)

“It’s a false assumption,” argues Herman Daly, “to say that growth is increasing the standard of living in the present world.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

I agree with you, its our only hope. The alternative are rapid and violent overthrow of the system, or slow and steady decline and decay. Whether it does happen or not remains to be seen, not a lot of encouraging signs, there are a few, but they don't seem big enough or happening fast enough.
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Nice article. Managed to read with 12 foot io.

I’m a chemical engineer. In a chemical plant / refinery etc unconstrained growth is a disaster.

It’s rust and eventually a pipeline failing if you don’t know or don’t do anything about it. It’s a runaway reaction where the temperature gets too high and destroys your catalyst. It’s pressure building up in a system where the pressure relief valve has failed. It’s a level building up in a tower you don’t know about (see Esso Longford gas explosion). Eventually the growth hits a constraint and there is some kind of massive problem

I’m pretty sure to any medical person that unconstrained growth in the body is a problem. It’s a tumour or a lump. It’s the harbinger of death. .

Unconstrained depletion of something is an issue too. It’s a fuel shortage or no toilet paper. It’s suffocating under the water when your oxygen gauge is wrong. It’s a river all being directed to one farm.

This is pretty easy to comprehend that on a global scale it is no different for any resource. If you aren’t in balance you are going to run out of something or fill something up until there is a problem. Bloody difficult problem to solve though with all us pesky humans screwing it up. Nature seems to just sort itself out.

The sun is basically the main input of anything (energy) coming in to the earth (for quite a long time to come). It is fuelling all the transformations of everything. Everything else will basically be balanced (I guess you could be persnickety and say meteor crashes bring new matter, extra planetary missions take some away and nuclear reactions are also a non sun source of energy swapping matter for energy). Nothing we do will let us use more than that amount of energy in perpetuity.
 
RoarEmotion said:
I find the conversations on flood insurance interesting. It’s tough but basically parts of the land we shouldn’t be building houses on. The insurance fees of $k50 in the media basically are saying we expect to be paying out every 10 years or so. Which means don’t have a house there. I find calls to push the cost down missing the actual issue completely.

Planning needs to be pretty strong about not allowing development in flood plains and then socialising the risk to every other taxpayer.

Relocation costs I’m sitting on the fence.

The areas impacted this way are going to grow over time.

www.theage.com.au

Relocation looms for homes in flood-hit towns where insurance is almost impossible

After two floods inside two years in parts of Victoria, insurance experts are concerned flood coverage will become increasingly unaffordable for many residents in the state’s flood-hit communities.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
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Live in a flood zone or bush fire area or earthquake area then you better expect to get your arse kicked on a regular basis by mother nature n pay through the nose for insurance. Always makes me wonder why everyone else has to pay for someone else's lifestyle choices.
Many years ago an older brother lived in Moree in NSW. Massive flood zone as there's the Mehi river and Gwydir river and the surrounding land is flat as a pancake yet plenty of the houses in town were stump and footings built roughly half to one metre above ground while others were a good three metres above ground. Brother never actually caught anything, but he'd happily dangle a line off the back porch during the floods just in case a stray red fin or yellow belly might get peckish while wandering past.
 
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If world leaders didn't spend trillions of dollars on weapons to obliterate each other and spent it on ways to counter global warming then we might have a chance. World domination and the global split is the main obstacle to solving this problem. We are shifting more and more away from world peace - if humans can't get along then they are destined to destroy the world they live on.
 
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Tigers of Old said:
The weather seems completely haywire this summer.
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Another *smile* Summer for mine. Lots of cold, rainy days. And if we do get a decent day or two, it’s followed by thunderstorms and *** hail.

Should have invested in a panel beater business years ago.
 
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tigertim said:
My experience with Melbourne weather is that it’s crap (it’s largely either cold, wet, cloudy or windy or a combination of) from about mid to late April to late November. it feels like our summers get shorter. I’d love to enjoy more sun like other parts of Australia get but I’d have to get a divorce to do so.
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I’m just assuming Aus Post failed to deliver summer this year.
 
Seemed like pretty big news yesterday but seemed to pass through without a shrug.

www.sbs.com.au

Global temperatures may already be up by 1.5 degrees

Global temperatures may have already risen by 1.5 degrees since pre-industrial times, according to an Australian-led research team. They warn that warming could reach 2 degrees by the end of the decade, much sooner than predicted. Their findings come from an unusual source - rare, sea sponges that…
www.sbs.com.au www.sbs.com.au
 
Tigers of Old said:
Seemed like pretty big news yesterday but seemed to pass through without a shrug.

www.sbs.com.au

Global temperatures may already be up by 1.5 degrees

Global temperatures may have already risen by 1.5 degrees since pre-industrial times, according to an Australian-led research team. They warn that warming could reach 2 degrees by the end of the decade, much sooner than predicted. Their findings come from an unusual source - rare, sea sponges that…
www.sbs.com.au www.sbs.com.au
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From rare sea sponges :giggle: what date was roughly was “pre-industrial times”?

What was the temperature differences 500,1500,2000 years ago? What animals are they gonna ask?

Beautiful day here in Aldinga Beach ;)
 
TigerMasochist said:
But, but Janey's a qualified meteorologist, everyone knows her Bunns are right.
Prefer to stick my head out the window in the mornings, if it gets wet I know I need to take my brolly with me to work.
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She was right. The useless BOM upgraded next Tuesday's temp to 35deg now.
 
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