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State Government

Really nice post Coburg. Thanks for sharing it.

So why do you think politicians of all persuasions don’t give a rat’s about teachers’ pay?

You would think that if the kids of most politicians were educated in government schools teachers would be well looked after.

Could it be that political concerns of ethnicity, skin colour, religion, gender, poverty, social justice and discrimination etc etc are all just acts of a generational pantomime?

Strange how no one ever talks about class anymore.

The State School system is owned and run by the State Government, and by extension, the State Parliament. I reckon that, given the parliament is responsible for state schools, they should be banned from sending their kids anywhere except their local state school.

Watch the funding, resources etc ramp up if that ever happened.

The truth is the pollies just don't give a f**ck about state schools as they would never dream of sending their kids to one.

DS
 
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......I reckon that, given the parliament is responsible for state schools, they should be banned from sending their kids anywhere except their local state school....

DS
That David would be an excellent law. Imagine how that would impact the health of our education system and raise the education standards for the majority of Australians.
It's probably the most subversive idea I've ever heard on education. Very very good!

And of course if someone wants to send their kids through the private education system then dont be a politician and pay for your kids' education yourself.
 
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Utter waste of time.

The issue isn't a lack of people doing teaching degrees.

It's people starting them, then realising, 'Whaddya mean we have to do work over the school holidays? And are you saying I can't start at 9 and leave at 3? Oh, we have to work 10 hour days... But we get paid extra for the overtime right.... Right? Wait, we don't get paid anything at all for overtime? It's expected free labour? Well... I mean, how difficult can dealing with teenagers really be.... *smile*, okay what else can I do... Oh wait, I can take this degree and walk into an entry level HR job, get paid more, and in 10 years be earning double what I would as a teacher? Right.'

Something like 50% of people who start a teaching degree don't finish it. And 50% of teachers who graduate leave the profession in the first 5 years.


At my work place of about 70 teachers, there is a revolving door of 1-5 year teachers, often disappearing and leaving a class with no one to take them, an old guard of teachers who've been in the job for 30+ years who are hardened warriors, but looking towards retirement, and about 5 people in between that, of which I am one.

The teacher shortage is real, causing massive issues for education, and just getting more people spinning around the revolving door won't help.

If you want people capable of doing a job that requires an extremely high level of skills, knowledge and expertise, strict legal liabilities, personal accountability and professional responsibilities, multiple degrees, and a huge time and emotional investment, then you need to pay those people competitive salaries.

Because people who have those attributes can generally find higher paying work for less personal investment.

That's why you lose teachers. All the other nonsense is noise.

At the moment, you can do two degrees to get into a teaching job with an entry level wage of 75 grand, or do a diploma and get into an entry level HR job for 85 grand. I have a sister 5 years younger than me, who completed the same science degree I did, then got an entry level position at a bank. With 5 years less experience, and one less degree, is now earning way, way more.

Young teachers aren't idiots. On the whole they are highly educated, passionate, enthusiastic, energetic. They all figure this out pretty quickly. And a lot make the decision early to set themselves up to actually be able to retire.

So, either, you encourage people into the profession who don't have the skills to work in higher paying jobs (not a great idea for your kids). Or you rely on suckers who get some intrinsic satisfaction out of the job (there's not many of them). Or, you pay them competitive salaries.


But governments will do anything to not pay teachers more.
Coburg… can you clarify this for me.
back in the 80s the pathway to secondary teaching was a non education 3 year Bachelor degree plus 1 year G Dip Ed. Which is the route my Science contemporaries took some with a 4 year honours degree. (My Di Ed offer is filed away somewhere but it was more of cover all bases… apply to P S, put in a MSc application as well as a range of corporates)

now I see Dans offer is for 4 year reaching degrees. Are these on top of an undergraduate degree or instead of? Is the G Dip still availabl.e?

do the 4 year Ed degree students have to take units in other faculties in the subjects that they are interested in? Or is it all this how to teach chemistry?

i think it’s a brave decision at 18 to say teaching is the way you want to go in life.
 
Coburg… can you clarify this for me.
back in the 80s the pathway to secondary teaching was a non education 3 year Bachelor degree plus 1 year G Dip Ed. Which is the route my Science contemporaries took some with a 4 year honours degree. (My Di Ed offer is filed away somewhere but it was more of cover all bases… apply to P S, put in a MSc application as well as a range of corporates)

now I see Dans offer is for 4 year reaching degrees. Are these on top of an undergraduate degree or instead of? Is the G Dip still availabl.e?

do the 4 year Ed degree students have to take units in other faculties in the subjects that they are interested in? Or is it all this how to teach chemistry?

i think it’s a brave decision at 18 to say teaching is the way you want to go in life.
I believe the 4 year degree is a Bachelor of Education, which will have credits equivalent to Science/Arts undergrad degrees, as well as a teaching practicum and qualification.

In my experience, teachers who come from these degrees often have woeful content knowledge (though this is obviously a generalisation), and end up being relegated to teaching junior (primary school or 7-9) ... or maybe teaching English....

The other pathway is a stand alone bachelor degree (3 years - which is sometimes followed by some real world industry experience) and a 2 year qualification in teaching (usually Masters level - though in some cases can be a diploma).

I've been mentoring Teacher candidates for 10 years now (I started mentoring in my first year because no one else wanted to), and had two this year. There are two massive issues I'm seeing in new teachers coming through.

1. The students doing teaching specific courses, (and even some stand alone courses) have horrible content knowledge. I've had Teacher Candidates tell me they don't know what CRISPR is (in the year 12 Biology course), because their teaching degrees really only cover Science teaching rather than Science learning and doing. Not only do teaching degrees teach science content badly, the uni's offering teaching degrees are also very fast and loose with what qualifies as a teaching method. I've had Teacher Candidates who have studied and worked in homeopathy come in with a Biology Method. Same with people who have done IT degrees coming in with Maths methods.

2. No teaching degrees adequately cover behaviour management. The vast majority of a teaching specific qualification (whether it's a masters/diploma/bachelor) is academic. And to be frank, pure wank.
You spend months looking at learning theory, developmentalism, educational theorists, effect sizes of certain interventions, rubric and assessment effectiveness, and are lucky if you get a passing comment about how to deal with the kid who throws a chair at you. Don't get me wrong, learning theory is useful, once you are established and looking to build on your practice. But as a starting teacher, it's decontextualised, abstract, and genuinely impossible to implement before you have effective classroom management. Theoretically, you get this in your placements, but the idiots running the uni's pile on assigments that need to be completed during their placements. I've had student teachers break down crying (frequently) after a class, and while I'm trying to guide them on how to deal with the little *smile* who was trying to turn the bunsen burner into a flamethrower, they're suddenly asking me how to incorporate 3.1 of the AITSL standards in a lesson to complete a presentation they have to give next week.

Teaching should be a little more like medicine, where you spend a year as a Teaching student, or an apprenticeship where you spend a few years under the direct supervision of a qualified teacher. In an ideal world, this would come after you have developed a specialisation in a field, developing skills/knoweldge that are actually useful to impart (hence actually being a teacher and not a babysitter). It seems odd to me that so many have only briefly interacted with the content they're supposed to be teaching.
Some teachers will argue that you don't need to have that knowledge, you just need to be able to pass on the desire and ability in students to develop it themselves. This is absolutely true as well, teaching is a profession that requires many attributes. In my experience, the best teachers are the ones with high level content knowledge, and are able to explain it clearly, and simply, while developing strong rapport with their classes. More research is coming out to that effect recently, as is the shift away from things like 'constructivist learning' and back to the 'explicit teaching' of the old days.
 
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Yep, CoburgTiger, so much of what you say is true.

Personally I would abolish the BEd, teachers need knowledge, and I would include this for Primary teachers too, their general knowledge is often woeful.

Teaching should be a Bachelors degree and a 2 year Masters at minimum, throw in honours if you are so inclined.

If you need these qualifications to teach, then you are going to have to pay teachers a whole lot more too.

The question is whether any politicians are serious about this, from what I've seen over the last few decades the clear answer is that they don't care.

DS
 
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Yep, CoburgTiger, so much of what you say is true.

Personally I would abolish the BEd, teachers need knowledge, and I would include this for Primary teachers too, their general knowledge is often woeful.

Teaching should be a Bachelors degree and a 2 year Masters at minimum, throw in honours if you are so inclined.

If you need these qualifications to teach, then you are going to have to pay teachers a whole lot more too.

The question is whether any politicians are serious about this, from what I've seen over the last few decades the clear answer is that they don't care.

DS
Your post on aligning politicians SI to the state of state education is perfect.

Like anything. Follow self interest.

Tax co2 if you want people to care about co2.

Make the people who decide on education have it effect their kids.

Pay teachers (a lot) more if you want to attract (a lot) better teachers.

Play footballers where they play their best if you want them to perform.

Tax processed food / HFCS etc to address long term health issues (just like tobacco) and put proceeds into public health. (Science out there is pretty convincing now imo that these things strongly impact cancer, mental diseases etc)

===

Personally I actually enjoy coaching and mentoring and teaching others and tutored throughout uni etc.

Despite a redundancy I can’t afford to be a teacher without completely reorganising my life. It just ain’t worth it IMO. (Child support / mortgage etc)

==

Pragmatically though….

The tax burden would be massive to do this so would need to compromise big time in other areas. Also I don’t know how you would transition out lower performing teachers for the potentially higher quality teachers attracted by higher remuneration. Unions don’t deal well with performance related pay etc. almost impossible to change without firing everyone and everyone reapplying
 
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Your post on aligning politicians SI to the state of state education is perfect.

Like anything. Follow self interest.

Tax co2 if you want people to care about co2.

Make the people who decide on education have it effect their kids.

Pay teachers (a lot) more if you want to attract (a lot) better teachers.

Play footballers where they play their best if you want them to perform.

Tax processed food / HFCS etc to address long term health issues (just like tobacco) and put proceeds into public health. (Science out there is pretty convincing now imo that these things strongly impact cancer, mental diseases etc)

===

Personally I actually enjoy coaching and mentoring and teaching others and tutored throughout uni etc.

Despite a redundancy I can’t afford to be a teacher without completely reorganising my life. It just ain’t worth it IMO. (Child support / mortgage etc)

==

Pragmatically though….

The tax burden would be massive to do this so would need to compromise big time in other areas. Also I don’t know how you would transition out lower performing teachers for the potentially higher quality teachers attracted by higher remuneration. Unions don’t deal well with performance related pay etc. almost impossible to change without firing everyone and everyone reapplying
The biggest problem with performance based incentives with teachers is that it's borderline impossible to assess.

The closest thing might be VCE scores, but even then, there are no control groups of students.

I teach two classes this year, same timetable, same year, same cohort, same content, same teacher, same lessons, one is scoring on average 20% higher than the other.

You could look at student feedback on teacher performance, but that risks a popularity contest that could lead to unhelpful leniency.

On the other hand, you tend to just know who's a good teacher and who isn't. I can tell you, some teachers get way more nervous about the idea of performance reviews, or observations, than others do, which says plenty to me.

I don't think you necessarily need to transition out any teachers. There's is a true shortage at the moment, we still need everyone who is willing. There's a class at my school that didn't have a teacher this term, and we were all chipping in where we could. But if you make the job attractive, you'll get more high quality applicants, and better appointments.


But I don't buy the 'There's not enough money to pay teachers more' nonsense. Where did the money for these free degrees come from? No surprise that the money ends up with the Uni's though.

Again, governments are currently and continuously funding stadiums/pools/etc for private schools that is completely unnecessary.

Some government funded branches with stronger unions seem to be able to find it.

Or we could just not not host the commonwealth games.
 
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The biggest problem with performance based incentives with teachers is that it's borderline impossible to assess.

The closest thing might be VCE scores, but even then, there are no control groups of students.

I teach two classes this year, same timetable, same year, same cohort, same content, same teacher, same lessons, one is scoring on average 20% higher than the other.

You could look at student feedback on teacher performance, but that risks a popularity contest that could lead to unhelpful leniency.

On the other hand, you tend to just know who's a good teacher and who isn't. I can tell you, some teachers get way more nervous about the idea of performance reviews, or observations, than others do, which says plenty to me.

I don't think you necessarily need to transition out any teachers. There's is a true shortage at the moment, we still need everyone who is willing. There's a class at my school that didn't have a teacher this term, and we were all chipping in where we could. But if you make the job attractive, you'll get more high quality applicants, and better appointments.


But I don't buy the 'There's not enough money to pay teachers more' nonsense. Where did the money for these free degrees come from? No surprise that the money ends up with the Uni's though.

Again, governments are currently and continuously funding stadiums/pools/etc for private schools that is completely unnecessary.

Some government funded branches with stronger unions seem to be able to find it.

Or we could just not not host the commonwealth games.

I think some maths is in order to make these sweeping statements. To get a significant change in teacher quality I think you pay 250k+/year. That’s over 5 billion plus a year? Way more than a one off waste of funds.

So yes you need to transition out poorly performing teachers. You put that kind of pay out there you won’t have a teacher shortage you will have a different problem.

I don’t have the skills/expertise to know how you effectively measure performance - it’s a tough nut however …. Referring to absolute metrics of student performance doesn’t make sense. that’s the private school game of filtering on selection to Create an advertising slogan. It’s about the relative change in students performance. Taking many from an F to a C+ more impressive than a class that averages As and turns into A-s.

Students retaining curiosity and being self motivated to learn and knowing how to go about that independently more valuable than a good grade too IMO.
 
Of course, one of the ironies of the private school thing is that it really isn't the best indicator of whether kids end up going to uni. If that is your goal, and despite the fact I work at a uni I don't think it is for everyone - other avenues (TAFE, working at least for a while etc) are better for some people, the best indicator as to whether a kid ends up going to uni is whether their parents went to uni.

We do practice what we preach and our daughter went to the local high school (secondary college these days I suppose, but I still think of them as high schools). Not a selective entry school, just the local high. She went to uni partly because of the huge advantage of parents who went to uni and a house with maybe 2.5k books (also she is smart and did eventually do the work to get the marks to get in). We could have wasted our money on private school fees, instead our daughter left uni with no HECS debt.

As for underperforming teachers, you do what has always been done with underperforming teachers, get them a job in the Dept of Education. They can send missives out to schools about how things should be taught, and get cheerfully ignored by those who are capable teachers. I did leave teaching, and part of it was that, while I don't think I was bad, I knew I wasn't particularly good at it either. I can teach, I can impart knowledge, but there were deficiencies and teaching is too important to stick around when you know it could be done better.

DS
 
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Of course, one of the ironies of the private school thing is that it really isn't the best indicator of whether kids end up going to uni. If that is your goal, and despite the fact I work at a uni I don't think it is for everyone - other avenues (TAFE, working at least for a while etc) are better for some people, the best indicator as to whether a kid ends up going to uni is whether their parents went to uni.

We do practice what we preach and our daughter went to the local high school (secondary college these days I suppose, but I still think of them as high schools). Not a selective entry school, just the local high. She went to uni partly because of the huge advantage of parents who went to uni and a house with maybe 2.5k books (also she is smart and did eventually do the work to get the marks to get in). We could have wasted our money on private school fees, instead our daughter left uni with no HECS debt.

As for underperforming teachers, you do what has always been done with underperforming teachers, get them a job in the Dept of Education. They can send missives out to schools about how things should be taught, and get cheerfully ignored by those who are capable teachers. I did leave teaching, and part of it was that, while I don't think I was bad, I knew I wasn't particularly good at it either. I can teach, I can impart knowledge, but there were deficiencies and teaching is too important to stick around when you know it could be done better.

DS

Well done.

My mum was a sole parent teacher and passionately didn’t want me to go to a public school based on her experiences (many teachers that didn’t care or had give up and some of the violence). (Bonbeach and Karingal secondary colleges) I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to a private school (two third fees) and have a mum who cared about it. 100% sure she didn’t see the fees as a waste. The location of where you are and the catchment area you are in matters a lot.

To your point many of the kids I went to school with and had good TERs completely failed at uni once the support mechanisms an expensive private school provides disappeared. But they had their dads old boy networks to fall back on. I’m not much of a networker so never made it into that Gil type crowd and hung out with my engineery type friends.
 
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To your point many of the kids I went to school with and had good TERs completely failed at uni once the support mechanisms an expensive private school provides disappeared. But they had their dads old boy networks to fall back on. I’m not much of a networker so never made it into that Gil type crowd and hung out with my engineery type friends.
I can recall reading something years ago about the comparison of performance at Universities between students who went to Private schools versus those who went to state schools and I am sure it said that State school educated students did relatively better in the University environment. I am not sure if there have been any recent studies on this?

The problem is of course that so many smart state school kids don't get into Uni or they don't get the course they aim for because they haven't been to school at a private "VCE factory" .

Take medicine as an example where the vast majority of doctors ( specialists in particular) come from elite private schools or they are immigrants who studied here or come from another country ( like UK and Ireland). I have enormous respect for doctors who were state school educated, they have really excelled imo. The specialist medical colleges are also dominated by private school elites who keep training positions for specialists controlled so that their incomes are protected. It's essentially a cartel and the elite private schools keep churning them out.
 
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I believe the 4 year degree is a Bachelor of Education, which will have credits equivalent to Science/Arts undergrad degrees, as well as a teaching practicum and qualification.

In my experience, teachers who come from these degrees often have woeful content knowledge (though this is obviously a generalisation), and end up being relegated to teaching junior (primary school or 7-9) ... or maybe teaching English....

The other pathway is a stand alone bachelor degree (3 years - which is sometimes followed by some real world industry experience) and a 2 year qualification in teaching (usually Masters level - though in some cases can be a diploma).

I've been mentoring Teacher candidates for 10 years now (I started mentoring in my first year because no one else wanted to), and had two this year. There are two massive issues I'm seeing in new teachers coming through.

1. The students doing teaching specific courses, (and even some stand alone courses) have horrible content knowledge. I've had Teacher Candidates tell me they don't know what CRISPR is (in the year 12 Biology course), because their teaching degrees really only cover Science teaching rather than Science learning and doing. Not only do teaching degrees teach science content badly, the uni's offering teaching degrees are also very fast and loose with what qualifies as a teaching method. I've had Teacher Candidates who have studied and worked in homeopathy come in with a Biology Method. Same with people who have done IT degrees coming in with Maths methods.

2. No teaching degrees adequately cover behaviour management. The vast majority of a teaching specific qualification (whether it's a masters/diploma/bachelor) is academic. And to be frank, pure wank.

teachers break down crying (frequently) after a class, and while I'm trying to guide them on how to deal with the little *smile* who was trying to turn the bunsen burner into a flamethrower, they're suddenly asking me how to incorporate 3.1 of the AITSL standards in a lesson to complete a presentation they have to give next week.

Teaching should be a little more like medicine, where you spend a year as a Teaching s.
thanks for such a great insight of the education landscape today. I’m trying not be an expert decades after I left secondary school.
so a BA plus 2 years Master of Ed. Wow. 5 years maybe six if honours degree… that’s big slice of life to be stacking shelves before starting a career.
The knowledge of the subject is what I can relate to at high school level. Teachers who had a love and understanding for their subject seemed more effective than a teaching technician. In fact i think many on the staff especially veterans may not have a teaching qualification at all. Equally maybe teachers are born not made in a uni lecture theatre.

Maybe my view of teaching of imparting knowledge and helping students to understand is an old fashioned way of looking at it.

and the Bunsen burner flame thrower might be a relative of my year 9 science practice partner…. A blockie from the Goulburn Valley who figured the quickest way to get back home was to blow the school up.
 
Good riddance. No accountability for years. We as a state are broke. More debt than NSW, QLD and Tassie combined. And office staff bigger than the PM’s. And would be on a par with Scott Morrison for lies told.

Let the healing begin with a fresh start.
 
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He's been a good premier and I'm disappointed he's stepping down.

Easily the best political communicator in the country, took on big picture projects rather than focusing on short term reelection tactics, and more often than not does what he says he's going to do which is a rare quality in politics.

Best of luck to him for the future.
 
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Wow.
So I guess he'll take his own advice now and "Get on The Beers!"

Was a good leader but I think the power got to him during the Lockdowns.
Lost his way.
A sense of change sweeping through everywhere it seems.