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Talking Politics

1eyedtiger said:
Have you never considered that these 'freeways' are congested because of motorists heading in and out of the city? How's East West link going to solve that? They keep publishing photos at the end of the Eastern Fwy of the Hoddle St off ramp full of vehicles. Except East West would have done absolutely NOTHING to fix that. And I loved to artist's impressions of the completed East West link, except that about 99% of the vehicles were missing! I guess a realistic drawing of the traffic snarl wouldn't have made for very good publicity.

my main issue with the EW Link has always been the fact that it will not fix the bottleneck where the eastern freeway meets hoddle st. plus it will unnecessarily bring more cars into the inner city for people travelling to the airport. a much better solution would be to build the ring road missing link (after public transport is fixed first of course).
 
The only way to determine what roads to build and where is profit and loss. Anything else is just gropping around in the dark. Hence all this discussion is moot.
 
K3 said:
And a good article about what looms ahead for us economically.

Election 2016: Who would want to inherit this budget mess?
OPINION
By Ian Verrender

This election isn't one that anyone would want to win. The global economy is uncertain, our debt is rising, and it seems we'll be relying on luck rather than management to avoid a recession, writes Ian Verrender.

It was hardly the kind of message an incoming Prime Minister would wish to hear.

Not long after he seized power late last year, Malcolm Turnbull met with senior econocrats to get a handle on the economy.

His meeting with Reserve Bank governor Glenn Stevens did little to inspire confidence. Business confidence had been shattered during the Abbott/Hockey era, he was told, business investment was abysmal, wages were all but stagnant and the terms of trade were collapsing.

This shouldn't have come as a surprise, for Stevens was traversing familiar ground.

For months he'd been issuing warnings to anyone who'd listen about the limits of monetary policy; that it was time for government to pull its weight. But the idea that the nation was on the cusp of a potential recession, particularly with a looming election, was confronting.

Turnbull quickly flicked the optimism switch to overdrive. There never was a more exciting time to be an Australian. We would transform from mining to something else via the magic of innovation. The economy was already well into the process of transition.

The rhetoric was fine. But that was as far as it went. While boosting confidence is important, it is no match for solid fiscal management. And so, in the process, the new Prime Minister missed a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to seize the moment.

Australia's economy is at an inflexion point. The boom days are gone but the tax rorts and the spending remains. Clamping down, right when the global economy was slowing, would have been tough, painful even.

At that point, however, Australians were prepared to follow what appeared to be a dynamic leader, certainly an intelligent one.

For that brief period, had the brutal truth been outlined along with a plan - where the pain would be borne fairly - to fix the nation's finances, we may have been able to steer a course back to economic strength over the medium term.

The one acronym missing from any political discourse, however, is the AAA, as in triple A credit rating.
Just as Paul Keating's "banana republic" call galvanised the nation, the electorate would have worn spending cuts and perhaps even a higher GST, had it all been balanced by closing the tax loopholes for the wealthy.

Strong leadership was required. What no-one realised was that Turnbull had signed away his freedom, that he was a captive of the factions that had installed him, that wanted no change, just a popular leader who could win an election and maintain their jobs.

At first, it appeared negative gearing, the capital gains discount and the exorbitant tax breaks for the wealthy via superannuation were all under investigation. But almost every policy, apart from superannuation, was jettisoned.

Incredibly, the Prime Minister now has become the great advocate of negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount, just to have a point of difference with the Opposition.

Rather than a grand vision for the nation and the economy, he has switched to an Abbott style three world slogan election campaign. Except that in place of the DDD (Debt and Deficit Disaster), we've reverted to the time-honoured BBH (Budget Black Hole) and now JAG (Jobs and Growth).

That's entirely understandable given the DDdebt has nearly DDdoubled since the Government came to power. No point reminding anyone of that. And Labor really doesn't want to go there either.

The one acronym missing from any political discourse, however, is the AAA, as in triple A credit rating. Each of the three major credit ratings - Fitch, Moody's and Standard & Poor's - has issued thinly veiled warnings that gold star rating is under threat unless action is taken to halt the deterioration in our fiscal position.

As Fitch's director of sovereign ratings, Mervyn Tang, said in an interview with Elysse Morgan on PM, Australia's triple A rating is safe, so long as all the expectations about growth released in the recent budget are met and there are no unforeseen domestic or international shocks.

That's a couple of mighty big ifs. For starters, the budget, now barely a month old, carries a series of assumptions that at this stage are looking hopelessly optimistic.

Iron ore last week was trading about $US10 a tonne below the estimate. Wages growth has slipped to its lowest since the last recession in 1992, to just 2.1 per cent in the March quarter, well below the 2.5 per cent budget forecast for the new financial year.

If that persists - and there is every indication it will - tax revenue will fall well short of forecasts and we will see yet another deficit blowout in the December half year update, as has become tradition.

Then there is the plunge in business investment. The March quarter figures, released last week, showed a whopping 5.2 per cent decline, far worse than expected.

If this campaign has achieved anything, it has demonstrated the impotence of our political masters and just how beholden they are to the vested interests that deliver them to power.
The problem is that we don't have a balance sheet strong enough to cope with this kind of downturn. Australia historically has run large current account deficits, importing more than we export and financing the difference with debt and imported capital. That's a problem in this environment.

Government debt, meanwhile, continues to climb. It's now at $435 billion, not far off the $500 billion ceiling, which will soon require lifting, or perhaps even a second storey addition.

While our government debt is low by international standards, that's not the full story. Our total international debt clicked over the $1 trillion mark late last year and has continued to rise.

That's because our banks have been borrowing like drunken sailors offshore to help pump up the dangerously inflated Australian property market. Given the federal government now guarantees Australian offshore bank debt, that bank debt is a taxpayer problem.

Last week, the Reserve Bank calculated the guarantee effectively subsidised our big banks to the tune of about $4 billion a year because it allows our banks can borrow at cheaper rate.

That has a two-fold effect. First, it places even greater strain on the AAA rating. And second, if the credit rating is cut, mortgage rates would rise immediately.

Oddly, there has been nary a peep of this during the campaign. Instead, the Prime Minister is adamant that the best way to ease the deficit is to cut taxes to corporations and the wealthy; a counter-intuitive concept if ever there was one.

If this campaign has achieved anything, it has demonstrated the impotence of our political masters and just how beholden they are to the vested interests that deliver them to power.

Take the ludicrous debate over the proposed superannuation changes, announced in the budget. Rather than a retirement savings plan, superannuation has morphed into a tax effective wealth accumulation vehicle for the rich.

The changes, bold as they are for a Coalition Government and long overdue, will affect a miniscule proportion of the population. From now on, rich superannuants will only receive tax free earnings on balances of up to $1.6 million. Earnings on anything above $1.6 million will attract just 15 per cent tax.

The howls of outrage have been deafening. The usual lobby groups kicked into action, decrying the shift as retrospective. Except, no-one complained about the retrospective nature of Peter Costello's decision in 2007 to make it open slather for the rich, when he eliminated all income tax from retirement earnings.

And what about younger Australians, many with degrees and trades but no job security and no chance to buy a house, earning $60,000 a year? They pay tax. And it is their taxes that will pay for wealthy superannuants to live tax free in the palatial style to which they have become accustomed.

This election is not one that anyone would want to win. The next three years will be hard going. The global economy is uncertain and the chances of recession are rising. We will be relying on luck rather than management to avoid a recession.
Ian Verrender is the ABC's business editor and writes a weekly column for The Drum.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-30/verrender-election-2016-who'd-want-to-inherit-this-budget-mess/7457808

what an amateurish article... wasn't this the same bloke who stuffed up an article about mining taxes because of his left wing bias and ignorance.
 
block22 said:
what an amateurish article... wasn't this the same bloke who stuffed up an article about mining taxes because of his left wing bias and ignorance.

Don't think so blocky. According to Gina Rinehart maybe. What in particular don't you like about this article and why? All seems pretty basic to me.
 
Without getting into political bias in any way can anyone point to one example where the concept that cutting taxes will lead to stimulation of the economy actually worked?

My view of the budget is that cutting company tax by 1.5% will have virtually no effect on stimulating economic activity at all. It is simply not big enough to change behaviour, to provide enough extra profits for companies to expand or to encourage multi nationals to shift profits into Australia from lower tax regimes.

But in the bigger scheme of things this cut taxes and stimulate the economy theory seems (to me anyway) to never have worked, at least not to the extent it was planned to. Maybe others have examples where it did.
 
Sintiger said:
Without getting into political bias in any way can anyone point to one example where the concept that cutting taxes will lead to stimulation of the economy actually worked?

Economic modelling has proven that it doesn't. It was a bit of a hot topic a few days ago.
 
Sintiger said:
Without getting into political bias in any way can anyone point to one example where the concept that cutting taxes will lead to stimulation of the economy actually worked?

I'll go out there and say that it may have worked in the past. These days though, there's too many people who are uncomfortable with the level of debt they're in (mostly caused by property prices) and instead of spending any extra cash they get, they're paying down their debts. That's all that matters now, paying off your debts. And when people do spend on consumer goods, it's often on credit so they just end up with more debt. It's almost like it's being engineered for the population to go broke and have to relinquish all their assets because it can't keep going on like this.
Also with this is that our governments are cutting the services they provide by privatizing everything. Some of you might remember the days when our utilities were publicly owned. So, cut taxes and give to the people a pittance in one hand. Only to privatize services who then take twice as much from the other hand. Privatization of governments assets like utilities was a very shortsighted move. Yes, we made a little money to splash around but in the long term, the government is losing revenue from those sources that has to be made up somehow. It's a downward spiral.
With the reserve bank cutting rates, those with savings (me :'( ) are not spending anything as the interest we now get is next to nothing. Then the reserve bank goes on about our currency but isn't it low enough as it is? And what exactly was wrong with having it at parity with USD like it was a few years ago? Australian made products can be better protected by raising import tariffs instead of manipulating currency. As we all know, if people don't spend, surprise!, no jobs! Australia (and most of the world) as I see it is trying to dig itself out of a financial hole only to find itself getting deeper and deeper in a mess.
And until now, I haven't even mentioned that Turnball's excellent tax cuts in most situations will give high income earners a very small tax cut, at the expense of the poor whose taxes increase by thousands in some cases, or a very large percentage of their taxable income. At the very best, those earning less than the average Australian wage end up no better off. Wow, the rich can now go and buy an extra pair of thermal jocks this year. The poor will have to cut down on basic essentials like heating yet again. Sounds fair to me. So in this context, tax cuts aren't going to help one little bit.
 
Sintiger said:
Without getting into political bias in any way can anyone point to one example where the concept that cutting taxes will lead to stimulation of the economy actually worked?

My view of the budget is that cutting company tax by 1.5% will have virtually no effect on stimulating economic activity at all. It is simply not big enough to change behaviour, to provide enough extra profits for companies to expand or to encourage multi nationals to shift profits into Australia from lower tax regimes.

But in the bigger scheme of things this cut taxes and stimulate the economy theory seems (to me anyway) to never have worked, at least not to the extent it was planned to. Maybe others have examples where it did.

The IMF just released a big economic study basically saying neo-liberalism is a failure. This is about as conservative an institution as you can get. NL policies have fostered runaway inequality that is destablising politics and stifling growth, and they need a serious rethink. I'll post the link if I can.

On the company tax cut thing, I read the other day it will deliver a windfall to the US treasury. If a US company pays any lower that their rate when operating overseas, they have to pay the difference to the US tax office. Great innovation fostering move that one.
 
Sintiger said:
Without getting into political bias in any way can anyone point to one example where the concept that cutting taxes will lead to stimulation of the economy actually worked?

My view of the budget is that cutting company tax by 1.5% will have virtually no effect on stimulating economic activity at all. It is simply not big enough to change behaviour, to provide enough extra profits for companies to expand or to encourage multi nationals to shift profits into Australia from lower tax regimes.

But in the bigger scheme of things this cut taxes and stimulate the economy theory seems (to me anyway) to never have worked, at least not to the extent it was planned to. Maybe others have examples where it did.
When you say "stimulate economic activity" what are you referring to exactly and how do you expect this to be measured?
 
Giardiasis said:
When you say "stimulate economic activity" what are you referring to exactly and how do you expect this to be measured?
The post is clearly referring to the theory that tax cuts create some sort of taxable economic activity which pays for the cuts. Company tax gets cut,companies employ people, they pay taxes and spend etc etc.
Because the theory that is put forward is that these tax cuts are self financing the way of measuring success would be whether tax receipts increase or decrease after the cuts are made I would assume.
 
Sintiger said:
The post is clearly referring to the theory that tax cuts create some sort of taxable economic activity which pays for the cuts. Company tax gets cut,companies employ people, they pay taxes and spend etc etc.
Because the theory that is put forward is that these tax cuts are self financing the way of measuring success would be whether tax receipts increase or decrease after the cuts are made I would assume.
Well the question is what tax rate will maximise tax revenue? Obviously if we had a 0% tax rate then tax revenues would be $0, but if we had a 100% tax rate, then tax revenues would also be $0. So it is certainly possible that a decrease in tax rates will lead to increases in tax revenue. However being able to isolate the effect of changing the tax rate on the amount of tax revenue generated is impossible given the innumerate variables at play. So you could probably find empirical data that demonstrates that decreasing tax rates led to either an increase or decrease in tax revenues. Neither observation proves anything.
 
Giardiasis said:
Well the question is what tax rate will maximise tax revenue? Obviously if we had a 0% tax rate then tax revenues would be $0, but if we had a 100% tax rate, then tax revenues would also be $0. So it is certainly possible that a decrease in tax rates will lead to increases in tax revenue. However being able to isolate the effect of changing the tax rate on the amount of tax revenue generated is impossible given the innumerate variables at play. So you could probably find empirical data that demonstrates that decreasing tax rates led to either an increase or decrease in tax revenues. Neither observation proves anything.
That may be true (it would probably be possible to create data that might "prove" any point anyone might choose to make ) but my ultimate point is about the 1.5% company tax cut. My experience, which is substantial in both an MNC and as a small business owner , is that such a tax cut is unlikely to change anything apart from reducing the amount of tax we collect. Ultimately I feel that the company tax cut in the budget was a big waste of money but as you say it probably can't be proven.
 
Sintiger said:
That may be true (it would probably be possible to create data that might "prove" any point anyone might choose to make ) but my ultimate point is about the 1.5% company tax cut. My experience, which is substantial in both an MNC and as a small business owner , is that such a tax cut is unlikely to change anything apart from reducing the amount of tax we collect. Ultimately I feel that the company tax cut in the budget was a big waste of money but as you say it probably can't be proven.
From a utilitarian perspective, the way to determine if tax cuts are good or bad is not to look at the effect on tax revenues but to look at the effect of taxation on the whole economy. What is the consequence of taxation? Well it extorts funds from productive individuals and places it in the hands of government bureaucrats who then pass it onto unproductive individuals. Instead of the productive individuals deciding what to do with the money (spend, hoard, invest), politicians and their agents decide. The government could only extort the funds after those individuals earned them from meeting consumer demand. Taxation limits their ability to provide further value, and reduces the incentive to produce that value in the first place. Productive individuals have at their disposal profit and loss economic calculation, the bureaucrats have arbitrary judgement. It is clear then that taxation takes resources away from the individuals that add real value to society and gives it to those that do not provide real value. So it is obvious then that any reduction in taxation is a boon to society.
 
Giardiasis said:
From a utilitarian perspective, the way to determine if tax cuts are good or bad is not to look at the effect on tax revenues but to look at the effect of taxation on the whole economy. What is the consequence of taxation? Well it extorts funds from productive individuals and places it in the hands of government bureaucrats who then pass it onto unproductive individuals. Instead of the productive individuals deciding what to do with the money (spend, hoard, invest), politicians and their agents decide. The government could only extort the funds after those individuals earned them from meeting consumer demand. Taxation limits their ability to provide further value, and reduces the incentive to produce that value in the first place. Productive individuals have at their disposal profit and loss economic calculation, the bureaucrats have arbitrary judgement. It is clear then that taxation takes resources away from the individuals that add real value to society and gives it to those that do not provide real value. So it is obvious then that any reduction in taxation is a boon to society.
There is plenty to debate in that and whilst I generally agree with the premise that the spending of the tax $ by Government is less than ideal I don't necessarily agree that Government is the wrong entity to provide certain services. However that is a very different subject and this is a thread about politics and the subject was the budget and the election so I will stick with that.
 
Sintiger said:
There is plenty to debate in that and whilst I generally agree with the premise that the spending of the tax $ by Government is less than ideal I don't necessarily agree that Government is the wrong entity to provide certain services. However that is a very different subject and this is a thread about politics and the subject was the budget and the election so I will stick with that.
That's fine but then don't go measuring the goodness of a budget policy based on how it affects the government's coffers because that is beside the point. What matters in politics is what is good for the individuals in society. Tax cuts aren't a "waste of money", they should be supported by all who want to increase living standards for all (irrespective of the immorality of taxation).
 
Giardiasis said:
That's fine but then don't go measuring the goodness of a budget policy based on how it affects the government's coffers because that is beside the point. What matters in politics is what is good for the individuals in society. Tax cuts aren't a "waste of money", they should be supported by all who want to increase living standards for all (irrespective of the immorality of taxation).

wrong. If the collective revenue is spent wisely, individuals are far better off. Big 'if', no debate on that. The mining boom of the zeros for example, there was money flying everywhere. In an alternative universe, Howard could have not shoveled the money to individuals via middle-class welfare, and he could have done some actual work, built national infrastructure, ports, public transport, schools, an NBN, he could have actually have done both, less MCW and built a lot of infrastructure. It was a once in 50 year, maybe 100year opportunity to rebuild the nation. More employment and infrastructure. p!ssed up against the MCW wall.

Instead, individuals bought more stuff, that wore out, Harvey Norman et al made huge profits.

So, re your last sentence, I want increased living standards for all, but I do not support LNP tax cuts for people who don't need it.
 
tigersnake said:
wrong. If the collective revenue is spent wisely, individuals are far better off. Big 'if', no debate on that. The mining boom of the zeros for example, there was money flying everywhere. In an alternative universe, Howard could have not shoveled the money to individuals via middle-class welfare, and he could have done some actual work, built national infrastructure, ports, public transport, schools, an NBN, he could have actually have done both, less MCW and built a lot of infrastructure. It was a once in 50 year, maybe 100year opportunity to rebuild the nation. More employment and infrastructure. p!ssed up against the MCW wall.

Instead, individuals bought more stuff, that wore out, Harvey Norman et al made huge profits.

So, re your last sentence, I want increased living standards for all, but I do not support LNP tax cuts for people who don't need it.
The problem is that the revenue is not spent wisely, because government bureaucracies lack a mechanism with which to make correct entrepreneurial allocations of resources. You’ve listed a bunch of infrastructure investments without any regard to whether or not such investments are actually what consumers want. You have simply made an arbitrary judgement based on your own intuition. You are also disregarding what would have happened, had the money been left in the hands of productive individuals. By depriving the butcher of his money, he can’t then go and buy shoes, or invest in a new meat slicer, or donate it to charity, etc. Perhaps he sees value in infrastructure development, well then he might buy shares in a construction company or a technology company. He certainly wouldn’t give it to an organisation whose goal isn’t to satisfy customer demand, but is instead to appease political pressure groups.

At best the government can confiscate resources, and then put them into uses that would have been made by productive individuals anyway (obviously this is impossible given the resources required to pay for the bureaucracies in the first place, and it would be pure blind luck given they do not use profit/loss). Your last sentence is interesting as you seem to think that increased living standards for all means taking money from those people that are the best at satisfying consumer demand and giving it to people that are bad at satisfying consumer demand. In other words, reward those that do a bad job at improving living standards. This has a twofold effect – it makes those that are bad at satisfying consumer demand, even worse at satisfying consumer demand (why work harder when you get things for free?), and it reduces the capacity of those that are good at satisfying consumer demand.
 
Wow...$300 million in cuts in just a few years. Have to say that the ABC is my fav chanel to watch, closely followed by SBS. If either of these two happened to 'go', I don't think I would turn the tv on too often!
-----


A cashed-up campaign to oppose funding cuts to the ABC and defend the public broadcaster's independence will target more than 20 marginal Coalition seats in a new headache for Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.
We're throwing everything we have at changing public opinion because we see this as a crucial election for the national broadcaster

More than 10 videos will be released on social media urging younger voters to support candidates who commit to restore funding cut since the last election. The national campaign has also enlisted thousands of volunteers to ask voters in the marginal seats to sign "pledge cards" supporting the ABC.

Malcolm Turnbull, pictured on the ABC's 7.30 program, has been a strong supporter of the broadcaster in the past.
The campaign poses a threat to government marginal seat-holders already facing a national campaign by GPs against the extended freeze on Medicare rebates and anger over changes to superannuation in the pre-election budget.
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The first of the videos aims to paint a disturbing, comedic picture of what a commercialised and cash-strapped ABC would look like in the future. It suggests 4 Corners has been axed and 7.30 host Sales is a contestant on I'm A Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here!.

ABC Friends campaign coordinator Jeff Waters said a groundswell of anger over cuts to the ABC had led to a huge increase in membership and donations to the not-for-profit organisation.

"We are getting pro bono support from producers, artists and production companies to do something we could never have contemplated before," he said.

ABC Friends maintain the funding cuts will compromise or abolish innovative news initiatives introduced in 2013 under funding from the Gillard government.

These include ABC Fact Check, which will disappear immediately after the election, and cuts to the number of investigative reporters working for the National Reporting Team and to News Radio.

There is also concern over the extent to which negotiations between the Coalition government and the ABC identified areas for cuts.

While the campaign is not party political, it is certain to favour the ALP and the Greens. The ALP last week committed $21 million to increase the ABC's coverage of women's sport on television and digital platforms. The Greens opposed the funding cuts.

The campaign is targeting eight government-held marginals in New South Wales; three in Victoria (as well as Indi, held by independent Cathy McGowan); three in Tasmania; four in Queensland (as well as Fairfax, being vacated by Clive Palmer); and one each in Western Australia, South Australia, and the Northern Territory. Five ALP marginal seats are also being targeted.

"We're throwing everything we have at changing public opinion because we see this as a crucial election for the national broadcaster," Ranald Macdonald, ABC Friends spokesman, told Fairfax Media.

"The more than $300 million in cuts to the ABC since the Abbott-Turnbull governments came to power has routed the organisation, costing jobs, quality, and hundreds of hours of Australian-produced content."

Mr Macdonald said the group was also concerned at the prospect of advertising and sell-offs emerging as issues after the election if the Coalition is returned.

The potency of campaigns around the ABC's budget was highlighted in the 1993 election when then Coalition communications spokesman Warwick Smith lost his Tasmanian seat of Bass by 40 votes. Mr Smith's seat was targeted and the campaign probably made the difference between him holding the seat and losing it.

"[Without the campaign] I think my mother and her friends would have voted for me," he now jokes.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/election-2016-campaign-to-back-abc-in-coalition-marginals-another-headache-for-malcolm-turnbull-20160601-gp99h8.html#ixzz4ANcQSjbm
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